Rearming at Inactive Bases

[68Wooley]

The frame 2 discussion has touched on this, but I don't want to hijack that thread.

On Friday, we (the 68th) misjudged our fuel situation and ended up with a large number of the squad having to ditch. From discussions elsewhere, it seems we weren't the only ones. We could have got most of the squad back to an inactive field and rearmed there, but the rules for this frame expressly mandated rearming only at active bases. After some discussion on squad vox, we decided against rearming at the inactive field knowing that a penalty would be assessed for doing so. However, I know some other squads made the decision to rearm at inactive fields and incur the penalty rather than lose the aircraft.

So here's the question:

Is it better to break the rules and incur a penalty, but save your aircraft, or should you just accept the ditch if you can't make it to a legitimate field to re-arm? Do people consider saving saving the plane in this manner as being gamey and/or out-with the spirit and intentions of FSO? Does the penalty incurred for doing so out-weigh a loss due to a ditch?

Regards,
68Wooley.

[shiv]

I had to ditch myself so I feel your pain.  And yes, rearming at an inactive base would be against the spirit of FSO IMO.  And there is no penalty really as it doesn't matter to the majority of players which side gets the most points.  And there is no penalty at all for the individual player so I don't see the argument there.  At least in this case.

I also think it's more in keeping with the historical aspect to play with the setup you're given and then just b*tch about it later in the debrief

[Stoney]

I'll start this by simply explaining my reasons for both the 1.5 fuel burn and the re-arm rules.

1.5 Fuel Burn

This setup requires nothing more than a 100 mile combat radius, more or less, for all planes involved.  I do realize that some of the Russian rides have short legs, but even they can be used effectively with this short distance.  No, you cannot takeoff and leave the throttle firewalled the entire frame.  That is by design.  No, you cannot hang out indefinitely over the target.  That is also by design.  

Re-arm

Using only the designated fields for rearming reflects the logistical issues involved with rearming and refueling aircraft, plus the infrastructure necessary to support aircraft operations.  These capabilities didn't exist right at the front lines.  Airfields were certainly pushed as far forward as possible, but not so far forward as to make them vulnerable to enemy attack.  Furthermore, the required infrastructure was not limitless, and consolidating services and resources at a select few bases rather than spreading them out all over created efficiencies that air commanders were quick to take advantage of.  Last, like the fuel issue, it creates another complexity for the CIC to negotiate--another facet of the overall tactical problem.

Finally, these are simply two different tools I've used to create some immersion, a more realistic feel, and a more complex planning problem for the CICs.  I've done this because I believe these characteristics add to the value of the event, for most of the FSO community.  However, if the community wants a more vanilla event, then perhaps I'll get rid of them.  We create these events for the playing pilot, not for our own egos.

The penalty for rearming at an inactive field is extreme.  It is equal to 1 point per violation.  As either side can achieve a maximum of 100 points per frame (115 with the landing bonus), each violation can reduce the number of points a side scores substantially.  Typically with my scoring system, the sides average around 50-60 points per frame.  It can, and has in the past, affected which side wins or loses the frame.  If it was not so extreme, then a potential violation could be rationalized by players.    

[68Wooley]

Hi Stoney - just to be clear, I have no issue with the frame set-up. There was no one to blame for our situation other than ourselves. 

[shiv]

Ditto, not complaining about the setup.  I didn't do my homework.  I should have known how much linger time I had over the target and set a timer.

[Saxman]

I do want to point out that the fuel issue is an even bigger concern when one of your rearm bases is also an enemy target, and the next closest one is over 50 miles miles away. Maybe one concession under the restricted rearm rule is to make sure that none of the rearm bases have a big bull's-eye painted on it for enemy bomber formations? That way defending squadrons at LEAST don't have to choose between risking getting blown up on the runway, or having to burn half their fuel to go home and rearm.

[AKKuya]

As one of the FSO staff for the AK's, my first priority is looking at the fuel range in the assigned aircraft.  I just go to offline mode and start flying the birds around with different fuel configurations and bombloads if applicable.  When the CM's put out any special circumstances like a raised fuel burn from 1.0 to 1.25 or 1.5, I change the enviroment to match the FSO set-ups.

Then I just start looking at the vital numbers.  Distance to target and back, preferred altitude, loiter time, fuel and bomb loads and such.  Once the numbers have been crunched, then it's just making the decision.

All and all, anywhere from 30 minutes to 2 hours of work offline.  Just my 2 cents.

[Nefarious]

I totally agree with you Stoney about bringing new facets to FSO but I have to submit a gripe here 

Finally, these are simply two different tools I've used to create some immersion, a more realistic feel, and a more complex planning problem for the CICs.  I've done this because I believe these characteristics add to the value of the event, for most of the FSO community.  However, if the community wants a more vanilla event, then perhaps I'll get rid of them.  We create these events for the playing pilot, not for our own egos.

First I will admit that I missed this, and I can't blame anyone but myself. If I had seen this, the 412th may have avoided our 2 infractions. Our mission was switched around when the CIC requested the 412th report to A29 to escort the attack group to A6. JV44 stated they were going NOE and had I not missed the specific rearm orders, I would of known right there our escort mission would be doomed to fail.  JV44 requested the 412th and the other squads to forward sweep A6 to draw the enemy away. To do this we had to run at near Military Power all the way to A6 to keep ahead of the JU88s. If the Sectors are 25 miles across like they usually are, A29 is roughly 130+ miles from A6 making it nearly a 260 mile flight to A6 and back to A29. It wasn't till I saw the text buffer nearly an hour into the frame that I knew of the rearm regulations.

You have to agree that most of the time, it is left to the individual groups and squads to accomplish the orders handed down by the CIC from the objectives of the CM.  Our Group commander stated they had no plan, and to escort just the JU88s. So right then, the group commander (a squadron entrusted by the CIC to command the entire Strike on A6) was telling us he had no plan and to follow the orders of another squad. I don't want to have to play sheriff every time I get questionable orders, but I don't want to take my squad on some lone wolf mission either. I asked the CIC where our new field was and we were ordered to launch from A29. Your squad did not launch from A29 and launched from their originally assigned base A18, not surprising they had the legs to make it back to A18. Did the 5th AF even attempt to sweep A6 or escort the JVs?, it doesn't look like it from the logs.

I don't want Vanilla Events. I like complex events, you know that. I just feel bad as a CO for costing the Axis 2 points against the side for something that was definitely avoidable, not just avoidable by my squad and I, but everyone involved in the attack on A6 and the CIC.

I'm not upset, just a little frustrated.

[Stampf]

As one of the FSO staff for the AK's, my first priority is looking at the fuel range in the assigned aircraft.  I just go to offline mode and start flying the birds around with different fuel configurations and bombloads if applicable.  When the CM's put out any special circumstances like a raised fuel burn from 1.0 to 1.25 or 1.5, I change the enviroment to match the FSO set-ups.

Then I just start looking at the vital numbers.  Distance to target and back, preferred altitude, loiter time, fuel and bomb loads and such.  Once the numbers have been crunched, then it's just making the decision.

All and all, anywhere from 30 minutes to 2 hours of work offline.  Just my 2 cents.

Same OP here.  I put my time in on Thursdays. Both our rearm and final RTB were down to the last gallon.  In fact some of our guys did not even have enough juice in the tanks to taxi to the pad, for our end of flight photo op. We were micro -managing our flight envelope the entire night.

[Stoney]

I'm not upset, just a little frustrated.

I wasn't there Friday night for Frame 2 as I had a commitment come up.  So, I don't know what my guys did. 

But again, I'll ask whether or not this was a CIC problem, or a setup problem?

One thing I have experienced before was the bombers running their escorts out of gas.  Back during GD's Aleutians event, we were tasked with escorting B-25s with P-40s.  Our P-40s had plenty of schlitz for the entire mission...if we ran at about 65% power to the target.  But, the B-25s ran full throttle all the way to the target, despite my pleas for them to slow down.  So, they got mauled, and we ran out of gas.  Sounds a lot like what happened to you guys.

[Stoney]

We were micro -managing our flight envelope the entire night.

So, is this something you enjoy, or is it more laborious than what you expect out of FSO?

[Stampf]

So, is this something you enjoy, or is it more laborious than what you expect out of FSO?

For me Stoney, I wouldn't want it any other way.  Immerse me sir, in the hardships, and challenges of real combat flight ops.  Planning, attention to detail, and risk, all add to the flavor of the week, which is FSO.  <S>.

[Nefarious]

So, they got mauled, and we ran out of gas.  Sounds a lot like what happened to you guys.

Well, the 88s got mauled and our flight lost 4 of 6 aircraft due to overwhelming enemy. Then of course we got hit with the Rearm Restrictions (Once again, my fault). I instructed my two remaining pilots to rearm at A8 despite the infractions, I was under impression that would not be as bad as ditching and losing your aircraft...    There we lost another pilot on the runway.

Our remaining pilot managed to RTB at A29.

[Nefarious]

But again, I'll ask whether or not this was a CIC problem, or a setup problem?

I don't think it was a setup or CIC problem, but one of those problems where a whole bunch of things happened that culminated in a bummer frame for myself and my squad. In the end, I failed to acknowledge the only written order that would result in a penalty.

I won't dwell on it and look forward to frame 3. <S>

[68falcon]

IMO it was not the CiC or the design. It was the thrill of a long and continuous fight and the fun of the event. Next time much more consideration will be given to fuel and disengaging in time to rearm.

Stoney great event