Did I HO Limbo0?

[JunkyII]

If loathing wouldnt have taking that shot there he would be in horrible position the next time they came to a merge...IMO. Ill pass this shot in a 1v1  but I know when this happens I normally get killed really shortly after that.

[TW9]

its funny when people complain of these front quarter shots and call them ho's. to me a ho is ONLY when each opponent has a gun solution on one another. obviously that wasnt the case in this fight. too much choppin throttle in those flat turns. Sometimes gotta know when to punch and go full wep. If you (limbo) were a little faster you might have got your nose up a tad more and caused him to possibly pass on the shot. Then as he passed, immel and roll around on his 6. IM guessing His next move would be to go back vertical basically putting this fight into a rolling sissors (where they almost always end up.) You'd (Limbo) would be alot slower and probably have to repeat the initial manuever a couple times but eventually, if you're evasives are good enough both planes would be nearly equal E states. At that point its who's best at flying their plane on the edge.

[dedalos]

If loathing wouldnt have taking that shot there he would be in horrible position the next time they came to a merge...IMO. Ill pass this shot in a 1v1  but I know when this happens I normally get killed really shortly after that.

True, but that would be his fault.  He had the advantage and the other guy forced him in to a bad situation.  If limbo had any e left to flip his plane around he would get a nice canopy shot after that pass.  I am sure loathing knew that and that is why he fired.  As I said earlier, in a friendly duel, don't take it.  Way too close and you don't get to see or practice avoiding the next pass.  On a fight against limbo, it was a 90 degree deflection in my book  .

[humble]

Junky you hit the real issue on the head...

I always fly with the idea of avoiding that type of top down positioning since it does create issues, but if a guy is already defensive then flying for the under and that type of vertical reverse is pretty common. To me anyone (to remove limbo from equation) has to defend and then attack on a reverse. I'm not a big dueler but I can't recall anyone ever complaining about me taking a cheap shot. I never take anything even close to a face shot but if I've got the 3/9 line then I've got the option of either accepting the shot and rolling scissor or defending my position with regard to the 3/9 line. I'd have responded totally differently because I'd have been expecting a "skinny move" but from loathings position he's dead meat if he doesn't take that shot.

I can't count the number of times a good stick has told me "I got lucky" flying thru a shot...and I've commented exactly the same countless times. We all end up in situations where our best chance to reverse a bad situation is to go all in and try and sneak thru a shot window. I think thats one reason so many grow to favor the K4...you dont sneak thru a spud hit. I've won countless fights by absorbing a few 20mm spread out over the airframe during a reverse. I think anytime you haven't actually won the 3/9 line cleanly you need to decline any marginal FQ shot as a matter of principle. However once you have in fact gained that advantage the defender has to defend any shot window until he can gain a true reverse or extend enough to reset.

[Demetrious]

There seems to be a habit in this game of immediately questioning any successful gun shot from the front quarter, which vexes me greatly, since any number of tight maneuvers can produce this situation- snapshots in a tight scissors, for example. I thought the reason HO's were found to be annoying and generally "un-sportsmanlike" is because newbies love to go for it in the merge, resulting in either a brief jousting match or a collision, which usually sends both pilots back to the field and wastes ten minutes for re-planing and transit time for no gain or purpose.

EDIT: My point being, of course, that pilots who are attempting to have a real fight instead of the suicidal head-on jousting match are justified in taking any shot they can get. If I'm running BnZ on somebody who can hang on the prop and has a cannon with a long reach (109F, say, with the MG/151,) and he puts his nose on me every time I dive in, then he's Doing It Right. He's obeying the Dicta, after all.

[dedalos]

Humble, what's a "skinny move"?

[JunkyII]

Junky you hit the real issue on the head...

Nope I think you did

[JunkyII]

Humble, what's a "skinny move"?

Hes talking about getting skinny i think....by pointing your wing at your opponents nose

[humble]

True, but that would be his fault.  He had the advantage and the other guy forced him in to a bad situation.  If limbo had any e left to flip his plane around he would get a nice canopy shot after that pass.  I am sure loathing knew that and that is why he fired.  As I said earlier, in a friendly duel, don't take it.  Way too close and you don't get to see or practice avoiding the next pass.  On a fight against limbo, it was a 90 degree deflection in my book  .

I couldn't disagree with you more. Limbo flew stupid and deserved what he got. He needed better displacement and a move out of plane. you'd never fly that move without setting up an enticing shot...you'd want the other guy to accept the bait because he'd be DMF at that point. This is my only point with the entire "HO" issue. I agree 100% that you take no questionable shot until the 3/9 line is won. So you pass on all cheap shots during the chess match portion. IMO that means that the guy who in fact wins the 3/9 line has the option to either defend that position or cash it in for a shot. To me limbos move is an ever increasing tactic that says I can take a chance and gamble...if I gain the edge fine...if not I'll fly to a vertical reverse and pull into the other guy and claim foul if he takes the shot. This is exaclt what you see 90% of the spit's, nikki's and hurricane drivers to in the MA. I read it as Limbo trying to fly for a safe zone instead of flying to kill the other guy. Loathing did (IMO) trap himself into a bad spot. I'd venture that you, Lazer, Paws or any other 38 ace would have easily reversed him there...in fact he was totally out of position to defend or counter any competent reverse IMO. It is in fact a classic top down shot/reverse setup that any trainer would set up. I've probably got a dozen or more on film from working with guys on in to out of plane transitions in the TA/DA.

So to me the real message is to respect the 3/9 line. Fly to win it and to keep it. But if the other guy grabs it then accept the fact that he did and fly to either reverse or extend. Don't fly to get safe and diminish both his accomplishment or the fight as a whole.

[humble]

Humble, what's a "skinny move"?

Getting out of plane and showing the thin profile you talk about. Basically you set the lift vector to show the plane form shot early to set the bait and then roll it away and move out of plane as the real shot window approaches. Otherwise know as the "disappearing" 38 trick you guys use so well. Which also puts the tremendous rudder and control authority to work...basically exactly what you lazer and the other top 38 drivers do all the time.

[dedalos]

Hes talking about getting skinny i think....by pointing your wing at your opponents nose

check

[dedalos]

Getting out of plane and showing the thin profile you talk about. Basically you set the lift vector to show the plane form shot early to set the bait and then roll it away and move out of plane as the real shot window approaches. Otherwise know as the "disappearing" 38 trick you guys use so well. Which also puts the tremendous rudder and control authority to work...basically exactly what you lazer and the other top 38 drivers do all the time.

Humble, I consider you a friend and I think I have never talked bad about you ( at list in public ).  BUT!!! If you ever call me a buff driver again or associate me with a bunch of no good torpedo carrying two engine easy mode buff newbies, I will 

 

[humble]

hehe  

[grizz441]

its funny when people complain of these front quarter shots and call them ho's. to me a ho is ONLY when each opponent has a gun solution on one another.

If both players had guns on one another in this angle wouldn't that have resulted in a ram?  That's the point I've been trying to make, if a player avoids the ram, he doesn't have guns on but the top player, who is controlling the fight in this spot sees this is a thin gun solution and fires even though it's pretty HOish.

Moral of the story?  Don't get caught in this spot on the bottom going nose up at your enemy in plane expecting him to hold guns because most likely he will blast you.

[Loathing]

Thanks for the input. It would seem that almost everyone has had their moment with limbo, heh. I was just wondering if I spotted Grizz, Snaphook, or Dedalos around if I could ask you some questions about the weaker parts of my abilities? You guys seem to have a good technical knowledge of the game and could possibly help me(if you're willing).




Loathing