Author Topic: What is up with the strats?  (Read 7121 times)

Offline MadHatter

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Re: What is up with the strats?
« Reply #45 on: January 29, 2010, 11:57:13 AM »
um No, I have been in these skies long enough to "know" what goes on and at 30 you dont get "swarmed" as you put it,   maybe now a days that the Bombers are going higher you may get some fighters up there but I highly doubt you are ever swarmed. unless you are like many in here and Think two cons on ya is a Gang. :rofl

now post up some pics of these swarms and I will be corrected.








That was a fairly uneventful trip.
Now instead of a question, it's a declaration. You do not know what your talking about, you're just posting to flame and harass. Go sit in the corner.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 01:13:03 PM by MadHatter »
-MadHat
CO 81st Bomb Wing "Pogues"
"Carpet bombing is 100% accurate, the bombs are guaranteed to always hit the ground."

Offline Shuffler

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Re: What is up with the strats?
« Reply #46 on: January 29, 2010, 12:15:59 PM »
Clicked last pic.... just for your info  you might check the meaning of swarm.
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Offline MadHatter

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Re: What is up with the strats?
« Reply #47 on: January 29, 2010, 12:59:52 PM »
Clicked last pic.... just for your info  you might check the meaning of swarm.

1st Picture: 22 Knight planes inbound (look at the info box) 8 are co-alt, 19 more above 20k, rest closing. 22 planes total.
2nd Picture: Same as first, scrolled info box down to show 6 more planes inbound from 20K. 28 Planes total.

So by the definition of those who cry about 5 lancs noe being a horde, we have the mother of all horde battles going on here.

3rd Picture: Showing those planes moving to intercept, that they weren't just hanging around.
4th Picture: Our second pass. We're losing escorts due to fuel problems and holes mysteriously appearing in their wings. 15 planes incoming.
5th: 1 Bomber gets separated. Immediately has 6 planes jump on him. 3 Escorts try to help him, burning last of their fuel. He is being overwhelmed by the attackers ignoring the escorts and diving for him. He is being Swarmed.
6th Picture: Same bomber, lost 2 escorts and a drone, still dealing with 5 aggressors. Still being swarmed. And no he did not make it.
7th Picture: Was me , in landing sector, this 262 followed us at least 3 sectors. My point with this picture is, until you press "End Sortie", it isn't over.

You click one picture, and you think you have the answers. Shuffler, I enjoyed the few times I went against you. Even tho I lasted a whopping 10 seconds, I have those fights recorded. And I watch them, trying to figure out how not to make the same mistakes twice. One thing you told me was to check ALL angles before making an attack. You are one pilot I do not want to lose respect for. I would suggest you follow your own advice.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/swarmed

swarm 1  (swôrm)
n.
1. A large number of insects or other small organisms, especially when in motion.
2. A group of bees with a queen bee in migration to establish a new colony. See Synonyms at flock1.
3. An aggregation of persons or animals, especially when in turmoil or moving in mass: A swarm of friends congratulated him.
4. A number of similar geologic phenomena or features occurring closely within a given period or place: a swarm of earthquakes.
v. swarmed, swarm·ing, swarms
v.intr.
1.
a. To move or emerge in a swarm.
b. To leave a hive as a swarm. Used of bees.
2. To move or gather in large numbers.
3. To be overrun
; teem: a riverbank swarming with insects. See Synonyms at teem1.
v.tr.
To fill with a crowd: sailors swarming the ship's deck.

So yes, my definition is correctly used.




« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 01:17:55 PM by MadHatter »
-MadHat
CO 81st Bomb Wing "Pogues"
"Carpet bombing is 100% accurate, the bombs are guaranteed to always hit the ground."

Offline ink

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Re: What is up with the strats?
« Reply #48 on: January 29, 2010, 01:12:40 PM »
Clicked last pic.... just for your info  you might check the meaning of swarm.



sorry that is not a swarm by any stretch of the imagination :rofl the only "swarm" I see is the one you are in :rolleyes:...but sure you are right fighters will now go higher to chase your bombers down because you have to go higher due to strat change :aok

still makes no difference to me,  I am not gonna take the time it takes to get that high, besides that, the planes that do best up there I don't fly.

FSO is my time for realistic "sorties".

why you so defensive? play the game the way you like. I do

Offline Shuffler

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Re: What is up with the strats?
« Reply #49 on: January 29, 2010, 01:50:41 PM »
I get it.... so any plane in the area..... involved or not. So do you count planes in the whole sector? Maybe just the sector your in and all touching that sector?

Looks like the buffs have all others outnumbered even in the area.

27 B-17s
9  Fighters ( most of those either out of icon range or almost out)

Maybe you can take the totals that were on both other teams and press that as your swarm. Better yet Use the total number in all arenas as flying against your buffs.... oooo and don't count the other buffs as you have no control over them..... and.... and..... your drones, don't count them as they don't follow very well.

Good Lord... you were outnumbered!  :uhoh
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 01:56:09 PM by Shuffler »
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Offline MadHatter

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Re: What is up with the strats?
« Reply #50 on: January 29, 2010, 02:08:24 PM »


sorry that is not a swarm by any stretch of the imagination :rofl the only "swarm" I see is the one you are in :rolleyes:...but sure you are right fighters will now go higher to chase your bombers down because you have to go higher due to strat change :aok

still makes no difference to me,  I am not gonna take the time it takes to get that high, besides that, the planes that do best up there I don't fly.

FSO is my time for realistic "sorties".

why you so defensive? play the game the way you like. I do

Why am I defensive? I asked a simple question, you took it as an opportunity to insult and harass. You have NOTHING to contribute, yet you flame. You asked for screenshots, I provided exactly what you asked for. Now you change your story and continue with insults? You cry about 6-7 planes being a horde, but 28 planes isn't a swarm? So what's the number? 50? 100? 2 planes line up on you and you get ganged, but 6 planes line up on a bomber and he isn't? Why am I defensive? I ask a simple question, and I have someone with the mental capacity of a retarded chimpanzee on crack degenerate a good discussion into "strats are stoopid". You have asked, you have received, you have been corrected. Right now you're opinion matters about as much as a bad case of diarrhea: full of s*** and doesn't know when to stop. Again, go sit in the corner.

I do not give a flying **** as to what you fly, how you fly, or how lazy you can be. All I have ever expected on the Forums was common courtesy. I asked a question. If someone wants to turn this into a discussion about the merits of high altitude bombing, I'll be more then happy. Just present evidence, you may be right, I may be wrong, thank you for the insight, done. That is all that ever needs to be done. If you can prove I am wrong then so be it I will agree with you. Is that so hard to understand?

That being said, back to the original reason:
OK, this is going in a useless direction now. So back to my question. Does anyone know when the clock starts running on a factory? Does it start with destruction, or when the city starts to regenerate itself? Also any experiences (timings, good angles of approach, that sort of thing) would be appreciated.

Please, if you're just going to place flames or insults, go somewhere else. I'm just asking some simple questions.
-MadHat
CO 81st Bomb Wing "Pogues"
"Carpet bombing is 100% accurate, the bombs are guaranteed to always hit the ground."

Offline MadHatter

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Re: What is up with the strats?
« Reply #51 on: January 29, 2010, 02:11:33 PM »
I hate my connection
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 02:40:05 PM by MadHatter »
-MadHat
CO 81st Bomb Wing "Pogues"
"Carpet bombing is 100% accurate, the bombs are guaranteed to always hit the ground."

Offline MadHatter

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Re: What is up with the strats?
« Reply #52 on: January 29, 2010, 02:13:20 PM »
I still hate my connection
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 02:40:29 PM by MadHatter »
-MadHat
CO 81st Bomb Wing "Pogues"
"Carpet bombing is 100% accurate, the bombs are guaranteed to always hit the ground."

Offline MadHatter

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Re: What is up with the strats?
« Reply #53 on: January 29, 2010, 02:18:17 PM »
I definitely hate my connection. Sorry for the multiple posts, it seemed like my comp froze on me and I thought I had closed the connection.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 02:42:20 PM by MadHatter »
-MadHat
CO 81st Bomb Wing "Pogues"
"Carpet bombing is 100% accurate, the bombs are guaranteed to always hit the ground."

Offline Shuffler

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Re: What is up with the strats?
« Reply #54 on: January 29, 2010, 02:39:07 PM »
Your original question can probably be answered in the help area or a simple email to HiTech.




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Offline NCLawman

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Re: What is up with the strats?
« Reply #55 on: January 29, 2010, 02:55:57 PM »
I could care less if people choose to fly at 30K+ for bombing strats.   If that is your cup-of-tea, then go for it.  However, lets NOT kid ourselves at the reason for dropping bombs from that altitude.  You can hit strats from 20K+ the same as 30K+ and the fuel difference is negligible at best.  The ONLY reason to spend the time to climb over 30k is to milk run for score where you are less likely to encounter fighters.  Only 262s and 163 can even effectively get high enough to reach you let alone get above to fight.  I have tried to engage two seperate strat runs recently and both times, the bomber group was above the ceiling for the planes (a 110 and a JugM) I was flying.  Now, I don't waste my time.  If I see a strat run, I assume they don't want a fight and don't up.  They may have their free bomber points. 

This is not a dig.  If you want to fly up there, my hats off to you.  Enjoy the game however it pleases you.  But lets call the milk, milk.

 :salute
Jeff / NCLawMan (in-game)


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Offline ink

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Re: What is up with the strats?
« Reply #56 on: January 29, 2010, 03:03:38 PM »
bla bla bla

well show me where I insulted you? nowhere did I insult anyone,  you are the one throwing the insults about, not I.

YOU were in the swarm, there was NO swarm of nme around you nice try  :rofl  

don't like my replies don't reply back

again why you so defensive?  usually when someone is so defensive they are guilty of what is being spoken about....

oh ya one more thing you have showed me beyond a reasonable doubt you have the "...mental capacity of a retarded chimpanzee on crack..."

Offline MadHatter

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Re: What is up with the strats?
« Reply #57 on: January 29, 2010, 03:28:18 PM »
I could care less if people choose to fly at 30K+ for bombing strats.   If that is your cup-of-tea, then go for it.  However, lets NOT kid ourselves at the reason for dropping bombs from that altitude.  You can hit strats from 20K+ the same as 30K+ and the fuel difference is negligible at best.  The ONLY reason to spend the time to climb over 30k is to milk run for score where you are less likely to encounter fighters.  Only 262s and 163 can even effectively get high enough to reach you let alone get above to fight.  I have tried to engage two seperate strat runs recently and both times, the bomber group was above the ceiling for the planes (a 110 and a JugM) I was flying.  Now, I don't waste my time.  If I see a strat run, I assume they don't want a fight and don't up.  They may have their free bomber points. 

This is not a dig.  If you want to fly up there, my hats off to you.  Enjoy the game however it pleases you.  But lets call the milk, milk.

 :salute

Ok so let me get this straight, we don't want to fight because you chose a 110 to come and stop us? I have seen TA's, 51's, 190's, 38's, 57N's, F4U's, spit's, niki's, hell I've even seen a zero up there (that I think tho was someone just seeing how high they could go) I might have seen a 110, once maybe twice at 30k. I've seen the charts them, and it looks like your lucky to be going level and forward at that altitude. But honestly I can't make any calls on that because I don't fly fighters, least not very well. I can just tell you what has given me problems, aside form the 262, and the 163, would be 38's, 51's, and 190's, oh and TA's.
-MadHat
CO 81st Bomb Wing "Pogues"
"Carpet bombing is 100% accurate, the bombs are guaranteed to always hit the ground."

Offline MadHatter

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Re: What is up with the strats?
« Reply #58 on: January 29, 2010, 05:08:23 PM »
Ink, I have to apologize. I have some issues at home to deal with and trying to do so on a severe lack of nicotine isn't helping. Without dwelling to deeply I have a father with ALS and I have received some bad news, a wife in a fight with my mother in law, and it looks like I have to pawn my computer tomorrow to keep from getting evicted. I've been carrying that frustration over to here. For that I apologize (thank my wife, she smacked me upside that head after reading some posts) One point still remains valid, you have never experienced it. To me it's like saying you can be a police officer because you were a hall monitor. First of all, let me clarify a few things. The remark about flak at 30K was an offhand remark. I was trying to be funny, and apparently failed. Yes, I bomb strats at 30K, I also have hit them at 25 and 20k. Hell I went as low as 15k (that I don't advise, flak will chew you up). When I talked about getting swarmed, I'm not saying the skies are black with enemy fighters. When 1 pilot has to deal with 6 or 7 fighters at once, that's getting swarmed. By your admission, more and more fighters are upping to 30K, so it happens fairly regularly. You can see by the 5th and 6th picture I posted that's what happened to DHawk. That's what I mean by getting swarmed. All those planes in the first pictures did come up after us. They were doing the same thing, teaming up and picking off outlying bombers. Remember one thing, once our escorts are used up, that's it, they're done. They can't just re-up and join the fight in 5 minutes like the enemy can.
Here's a walk-thru of a normal strat run. I'm not going to use and opposition, just the basic run.

1: Lift off, level 1k AGL, manifold to 35 in, collect bomb group. Make first turn towards target. Full throttle. Engage auto climb. At this point escorts take position at 12, 9, 6, and 3. If we have enough we also position them at 12 high and 6 low.

2: Make whatever turns are necessary, stay in climb for BZ speed, flight lead assigns targets and lanes.

3: reach altitude, make final turn head towards target, 2 sectors bombers start to line up on assigned targets. At this point is when things get hairy. Most of the time buffs will get spread out enough that we can only effectively cover 2 bombers at a time. Most of the time we're 500 off each others wings, but when you take into account stragglers and different alts sometimes, this can leave some very big gaps. At this point we start getting aggressors. Usual routine is groups of 3 to 5 aggressors start to target one bomber per group and they start working their way in. Now our escorts are being expended, either they have to RTB due to fuel or they get shot down. This whole time we're in our bombsights, lining up. Alot of times we can't get gunners because 1/3 of the population is flying with us, another is already airborne trying to capitalize off the resources we're drawing away, and the rest is just AFK. On average we have 1 gunner for every 3 planes. So at this point, during line up and calibration, we're flying speed bumps.

4: Make drop, 1st turn for second pass. Now formation gets even more spread out because people miss the turn and the differences in formation already, gets amplified thru the turn. Top that off with diminished escorts and low level cons during the line up are now co-alt. Make next 2 turns jumping between guns and cockpit. Again differences get amplified, we're spread out more, now we have to line up and prioritize the drops to cover for lost bombers. Now any cons that were dropped during the initial line up are back up and co-alt. Back into the bombsights, back to being flying speed bumps.

5: Final drop, turn for home, again differences are amplified, now we're stretched out. lead bombers have to slow down more, while rear has to speed up. That whole time we are vulnerable. At this point, on average we may have 2-3 escorts left. So now, we are low on ammo, low on fuel, and we have to descend over enemy territory. So at that point we're real easy targets, and the whole damn country knows where we're at. During descent we'll lose bombers to lost engines and fuel leaks, and our escorts are dead or booking it home. Now we're being harassed by 262's and anything else.

It's not as easy as it sounds to fly to 30k, bomb a target, and head for home. There is no "milk run" to this. The only milk part is the take off and the climb, after that all hell breaks loose. We warn our pilots every time we take off "If you get separated, you will die", because that is exactly what will happen.

Look, I'm sorry. Things are extremely frustrating right now, and I'm doing all I can to hold the house together. Playing this game is my way of escaping. I don't have really any other means. But either way, I'm not going to be on for a while after tonite. I'm going to have to figure out a way to get my computer back.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 05:17:34 PM by MadHatter »
-MadHat
CO 81st Bomb Wing "Pogues"
"Carpet bombing is 100% accurate, the bombs are guaranteed to always hit the ground."

Offline NCLawman

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Re: What is up with the strats?
« Reply #59 on: January 29, 2010, 05:14:38 PM »
It's not as easy as it sounds to fly to 30k, bomb a target, and head for home. There is no "milk run" to this. The only milk part is the take off and the climb, after that all hell breaks loose. We warn our pilots every time we take off "If you get separated, you will die", because that is exactly what will happen.
     :huh



 :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Jeff / NCLawMan (in-game)


Those who contribute the least to society, expect the most from it.

Light travels faster than sound.  This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.