First flight for the Russian "F-22"

[Die Hard]

Well, some aussie or another claimed Russia could beat our ass. I beg to differ. A claim was also made that NATO would be a mouse standing in the way of a Russian cat. I beg to differ on that as well.

And an attack on a NATO member is an attack on all.

[321BAR]

Well, some aussie or another claimed Russia could beat our ass. I beg to differ. A claim was also made that NATO would be a mouse standing in the way of a Russian cat. I beg to differ on that as well.

And an attack on a NATO member is an attack on all.

just for fun and to keep this going, the American and NATO ground forces holding off a Russian invasion would probably create a stalemate... Air forces also, and the Naval aspect we'd probably have the superiority and i had a feeling about all of this before reading the stats 

[321BAR]

Are you comparing U.S forces to fanatical mountain retards jumping around with ak-47's? He's talking about conventional warfare. At the point when your troops have to live in caves and their only belief system is dying in the name of god, you have already lost.

are you serious? READ UP on HISTORY time... In the 80's Afghan conflict the Afghanis were NOT suicidal, zealots, or in anyway believing they were fighting FOR GOD... they were fighting to save their homes and their land. And in fact without our help they probably would not have won and the Soviet Union may have not collapsed so quickly... (of course the american government being what it is decided to forget about assisting the reconstruction in Afghanistan after the Russian invasion was over and the terrorists moved in and helped to gain support... THATS when the suicidal people began taking over

[HPriller]

Also geographical location is a serious issue. The US is seperated from the main continent, While Russia has direct access to NATO and the Middle East, Oil and Food. What a combo. Whereas the US would have to field an entire military across the ocean to get its full brunt into battle. WHile I do not doubt NATO's strength. To ask NATO to stand in Russias way would be like asking a mouse to fight with a cat.

What was afghanistan?  The flea off some sewer rat that jumped on the Russian kitty's back and bit so many times that the poor puss had to run home?

[Tec]

And the air war is a stalemate. Both sides have 4.5 and 5th generation aircraft in substantial quantity and both sides have high quality anti air weapons.

Really?  What 5th generation fighter does Russia possess? 

[Ack-Ack]

Hey Ack Ack, do you have 50 years experience in the USAF.

Because Dale Brown does. Read it

I have read and enjoyed many of Dale Brown's books but unlike you, I can tell the difference between a work of fiction and non-fiction.  Let me guess, you probably think "Flight of the Old Dog" is a technical manual for the B-52 and you probably think Top Gun is the best training film for A2A combat.   

ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

To be honest Ack Ack, you are possibly the most annoying person on this entire bulliten board. You claim to have an insider knowledge of the workings of World Politics and Military facts and figures.

Please, post any thing that I claim that I have any insider knowledge of "world politics and military facts and figures?"  Unlike you, I can easily tell the difference between fiction and non-fiction.

But I have a suspicsion that you have not even been in the Air force nor have any experience with it. Dale Browns book is a factual examination of the US Air defence set inside a fictional scenario. This whole discussion is theoretical and so not all facts can be taken into account but it also means that the book being a theoretical eventuality can be taken as an observation which means you have no authority to dictate whether it is right or not. You have not had 50 years in the USAF dealing with its equipment and experimental weapons programs whereas Dale Brown does. He has seen all the possible scenarios come up in memo's and studies on his desk, whereas you have not. he has flown B-1's and such where you have not. And has been in situations where war with Russia may become a reality whereas you have not.

You're right, I've never served in the Air Force or any othe branch of the military.  While the author might have been in the Air Force for a number of years, one would be an utterly and complete moron to think a fictional book the author writes is 'factual'.  Just read his book "Flight of the Old Dog", "Hammerheads", "Sky Masters" or any of his other works of fiction.  Good read to be sure but also not very accurate.

So if you have nothing positive or FRIENDLY to add to this discussion instead of putting down my and everyone elses opinions to satisfy your own overly pompous and inexplicable ego. Could you kindly please Golf Foxtrot and leave the debate to those who can keep their D**** IN their pants without having to show it off.

Thank you

First off, you need to grow up and mature a little bit and then hopefully that sack will drop and eventually you can be called a man.  If you don't like someone disagreeing with you then you need to get a thicker skin, especially if you try to use fictional writers to back up your points.


ack-ack

[indy007]

The T-50 doesn't have engine blockers, sawtooth edges on the gear door, or some other obvious stealth features. The stealth isn't going to be very good unless they significantly improve the production model.

[321BAR]

The T-50 doesn't have engine blockers, sawtooth edges on the gear door, or some other obvious stealth features. The stealth isn't going to be very good unless they significantly improve the production model.

they'll add those on... just wait for it. It's the first public flight... They'll steal those ideas just like they did the rest of the F-22

[Die Hard]

just for fun and to keep this going, the American and NATO ground forces holding off a Russian invasion would probably create a stalemate... Air forces also, and the Naval aspect we'd probably have the superiority and i had a feeling about all of this before reading the stats 

I don't think so. We're no longer in the '80s. The Euro air forces alone are a match for the Russians. Add the USAF/USN and the Russians don't stand a chance imho. As for ground forces, NATO combined outnumber Russia in tanks and troops, and considering the quality of western tanks it will be a very one sided conflict. A naval conflict with NATO would also be very one sided: 34 carriers versus 1. 392 warships versus 111. 92 nuclear subs versus 40. 68 diesel subs versus 20. Add to the overwhelming NATO numerical advantage, there is also a technological gap.

[Plawranc]

Alright, I was a bit POed when I wrote that, I apologize for being an arrogant little dick.

But no Ack-Ack, I do not think that. Plan of Attack is a simulated attack on the USA by the Russian Federation using aircraft. While I do not take a work of fiction as fact, this book talks about the US Air defence. Of course Dreamland and so on is fiction, but POA deals mostly with conventional warfare teqniques such as Strat and Tac bombing. The theoretical premis is that the Northern US air defence has not been maintained and that the Russians use that as a window to attack.

Now while this is fiction it illustrates the fact that since the end of the cold war the US military has not been kept up to its original standards. Flyable storage is more common among airforce aircraft and US Military man power has slipped below a World War fighting force. If Russia was to launch a huge suprise attack across Canada and the northern areas of the US its airdefences would take too long to mobilize. The Russian Military is still a large powerful force despite the end of the Cold War to keep its shattered union in a rough state of order, and now with new advances in Tech and increase in funding it is rapidly becoming a match for the US military.

It would not take much of Russia's HUGE natural and economic resources to reactivate all the old gear they have and spruce it up to combat readiness. This poses a major problem, as the Russian ground forces could overwhelm the small armies of Germany, Poland, Ukraine. The real resistance would start when France, Britain and the US enter the theatre. it is more than likely that to preserve their interests China would side with Russia and launch a pacific campaign similar to that of Japan. forcing us to fight on two fronts. This would cause a massive destabilization and we would be overrun.

Russia and China have more people and more equipment. In a conventional war this will ultimately win over prudent tactics unless of course we use WMD's. And in response Russia can deploy enough Nuclear firepower to wipe out every NATO and US, military and civillian target.

Now Naval superioritywould cetrainly be in the hand s of the Coalition, The Royal Navy and the US navy have enough ships and firepiower to stand off the rest of the world. But with Chinas entry that could be a stretch to hold.

My point is it would be a stalemate war of attrition. Which Russia and China will win over long term. Like the Allies in WW1. So Nuclear war is an inevitability.

[Plawranc]

I don't think so. We're no longer in the '80s. The Euro air forces alone are a match for the Russians. Add the USAF/USN and the Russians don't stand a chance imho. As for ground forces, NATO combined outnumber Russia in tanks and troops, and considering the quality of western tanks it will be a very one sided conflict. A naval conflict with NATO would also be very one sided: 34 carriers versus 1. 392 warships versus 111. 92 nuclear subs versus 40. 68 diesel subs versus 20. Add to the overwhelming NATO numerical advantage, there is also a technological gap.

So why would you be worried if there is not something to fear

[fudgums]

Plaw, you live in australlia, and not meaning this to all aussies but you have no idea of what our military can do.


Btw a two front war in WWII didn't do good for us I guess.

[Die Hard]

I'm not worried. If all goes well Russia will, in time, become a great nation and an ally.

[Die Hard]

China never was a Russian ally, even when they were both commies. For most of the cold war China was in fact a US ally. That holds even more true today with America and Europe being China's money tree.