random stats

[Citabria]

the p38L k/d vs fighters only is about 3 kills for every 5 losses ( .59)
622 kills. 1051 deaths not including bombers or vehicles.

fighters the p38L dweeb is "good" at killing (best to worst k/d)

the P-38L has X wins over, X losses to (P-38L K/D)
P-47-D25. 09 wins, 07 losses 1.28
F4U-1D. 27 wins, 23 losses 1.17
A6M5b. 15 wins, 14 losses 0.9
La-5FN. 22 wins, 27 losses 0.81
P-47-D30. 24 wins, 32 losses 0.75
C.202. 2 wins, 3 losses 0.66
Spit V. 22 wins, 34 losses 0.64
Typhoon IB. 33 wins, 54 losses 0.61
fw190A-5. 25 wins, 43 losses 0.58
Bf 109G-6. 04 wins, 07 losses 0.57
Bf 109G-10. 38 wins, 66 losses 0.57
P-51D. 63 wins, 120 losses 0.52
N1K2. 68 wins, 133 losses 0.51
F4U-1C. 103 wins, 208 losses 0.49
Yak-9U. 29 wins, 60 losses 0.48
Fw 190A-8. 18 wins, 45 losses 0.40
Spit 9. 50 wins, 131 losses 0.38

what does the data point to?
poor P-38L dweebs are getting their bellybutton handed to them on a plate by virtually every other fighter in Aces High even more in 1.04 than in 1.03.

the P-38L in 1.03 was actually pretty good. it stalled well. turned better than the german aircraft and all other american aircraft at high speed and just as good or better at low speed with flaps. it could go vertical at low speed and many of the single engined enemies would torque out if they followed.

in 1.04 (with equal pilots) the p-38L is out turned at high speed and low speed even when the p38L has flaps down by all other aircraft except the P-47 at low speed. it snap rolls like a 190 now as well giving it even worse low speed characteristics.



[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 12-18-2000).]

[bolillo_loco]

what did you expect citabria? just in the short week I poked around here it seems to be the general concensus that the 38 stinks and should stink, never mind what any book says it can do, it has been modeled below that and it is going to stay that way. I do not know if it was because of guys that came over from warbirds and hated the plane wanting revenge on it so they modeled it terrible or what, but do not expect the 38 to meet its performance that it had with this crowd. Do expect to see uber F4U-1s thru -4s.

no matter what information you find on 38s somebody will come up with their latest mathmatical calculations to prove it wasnt so. if they cannot get the stall of the plane right why would anything else be correct? doesnt it seem odd that all those who posted how the 38 should spin out so easy are all infavor of corsairs being ubber?

[GRUNHERZ]

citabria if 38 sucks so much how the the hell did you shoot that day, how how how?  
hehe why u like it so much, did u have relative fly it in the war?

[funked]

Awww somebody bent Bolillo's wookie.

[LLv34_Snefens]

Not counting bombers and vehicles Citabria has 32 kills and been killed 0 times in the P-38L   (54-1 if they are included)

Seriously, the 38 is actually one of the planes I am least worried when encountring in the arena. Like the stats shows it is a plane that takes a more than average pilot to make competitive.

[juzz]

 

[RAM]

Gotta say that I have flown a couple of P38 sorties since I came back to AH.

Citabria, you seem to insist that the P38 is outturned...blah,blah, blah. So...what?.

I dont pretend to say that it is correctly modelled or not (Zigrat ha an excel program or something like that, that seems to calculate quite acurately the FM of the aircrafts, why dont you test the P38 there^?). I say that if it is so ravaged on the M.A. is because people keep on turnfighting it.

When I flew it, I did it like a Me109G. Vertical fighting, a lot of BnZ, and with care not to compress. Refusing to turn at all, unless my E was way over my enemies'

Know what?  I got a positive K/D. Positive. were only 4 or 5 sorties, but I was killed only once.

People gets ravaged in P38 because they think it should turn well. I'm not so sure and so I dont turn. And that plane in the vertical is simply a monster, has a wonderful frontal view (if you are used to 190s and 109s, that is), very good weapons, reasonable acceleration and good climb.

I agree that the stall model is porked. As everything that means torque effects in 1.04, it sucks bigtime. But the plane itself is wonderful. Maybe needs a bit better acceleration, and maybe it should turn more (I dont know, really, if you say it, maybe it should be that way). But if it is nothing less than raped in the MA is because it is completely mishandled and used like it shouldnt. It is mostly used by newbies and that is clear when you look the K/D.

When I see a P38 in the MA, I take it with care. Its a VERY capable weapon and can give a Fw190A5 a run for its money, if used properly.

And hwne I am in it...In no way I'm going to stall fight flying that enormous monster, no matter what they say.  
 

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 12-18-2000).]

[eddiek]

Have to agree with you just a bit Citabria.
The P38 seems to have gone flat in this version.
After reading from different references, including ones with excerpts from German pilots after the war, the consensus was that the P38 turned remarkably well for it's size, and could not and should not be overlooked or counted out in a turning contest.  In fact, I read one piece that said that the LW pilots were told NOT to turn with the P38, as it would be on their 6 before they completed one turn.......
It was not on par with the Spit or Zeke, and sure as hell not the Niki or Hog (especially in AH), but yes, the thing was capable of winning a turn fight.  
Just hang in there, Cit.........HTC will et it right one of these days.   'Til then, I will soldier on in my Jug, towing my usual banner that says "Shoot me!  Maim me!  PLEASE!!"  (ya know, I ain't found anyone yet that don't accommodate me and my banner)

[Vermillion]

I agree with RAM.

Most people fly the P-38 entirely wrong.

Yes it was considered to turn very well.... for an AMERICAN aircraft. Its all relative.

To be successful, the P-38 should be flown as an E fighter, and not as a "Turn & Burn" fighter.

Plus to be at its best, it needs to be flown up high, to take advantage of its turbosuperchargers.

But guess what? Most people fly in down low in the arena, where its at its worst.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[fats]

bolillo_loco,

The very same people who made WB's P-38 have made the AH's P-38. Which is quite interesting if they then held that representation as accurate.

Rest of this message is just mindless rambling. If you put a WB P-38 pilot to fly AH P-38 he will simply get killed each and every sortie, unless he changes his way of flying to suite the AH P-38. Personally I thought the WB P-38 was just silly compared to WB's other planes. I guess it got more reasonable towards the end, and suppose same could happen with AH P-38 if it is found to be off by very much.

Anyone remember the change from J-LO-25 to an L model in WB? That thread on news was almost as fun as 'P-51 is 7mph too slow'.


// fats

[Citabria]

It stalls wrong (1.03 p38 stall model was good)
it does not turn at all even at high speed.
all 109's do circles around the p38 in a turn fight just like they did in 1.02

basically the p-38 has reverted into its second release form from around tour 1-2 where: it stalled & spun like a 190, turned terribly at all speeds. had mediocre vertical performance at altitudes below 20k.


it needs to be tweaked.

the P-38L is a 1944 fighter and it is getting trashed by 1942-1943 aircraft with considerable ease.
the P-38L was a nightmare for the LW. they could not out dive, out roll, out turn, out climb or get away from it.


the loss of aileron control after mach tuck is also too severe.

[Lephturn]

Heheheh.  I remember Mili's WB P-38 flip turns. <G>  Get headed up at 60 degrees or more and below 50 MPH you could yank the stick back and instantly flip it 180.  Hehehe, talk about crap yourself.. just as you think you've got him dead... flip... WHAM.  In WB the 38's were UFO's at low speed and could do freaky toejam.

Pigs in 38's were a deady flock of swine.  I'd have to say Mili, Worr, Squid, and Vila were the 4 scariest guys in the WB 38... even after we lost the J25-LO.    Oink!

I think the low-speed handling was just as strange in WB as it is in AH, just in the other direction.  Whenever you get to the extreme edges of the flight envelope it is going to do weird things to the flight model, so this is to be expected.  Overall I find AH to be better, even in the low-speed stuff, but the multi-engines seem to be off some.  I like the low speed and spin model better overall though.  The 38 may be a bit off in the low-speed area, but I think the model overall is much higher fidelity than the WB one.

Just out of curiosity, has anybody done any turn-rate tests in the 38 to see how it looks?
------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com
 
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"

[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 12-18-2000).]

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Citabria:
the P-38L is a 1944 fighter and it is getting trashed by 1942-1943 aircraft with considerable ease

the P-38L was a nightmare for the LW. they could not out dive, out roll, out turn, out climb or get away from it.

Ok, I'll bite.

If the P38 is beaten by 1943 aircraft in AH is because it plays their game. in no way a P38 will outperform ,or even outmaneouver, a C205, a Spit IX or even a Fw190A5 (under 10K) if it insists in losing its E in trying to turnfight with them (hehe countless times I have beaten turning P38s in Fw190A8 because they kept on turnfighting while I was conserving E).

About that affimation ,"the P38 was a nightmare for the LW"...lets see:

-"they could not out dive"------->sure. The P38 could dive so fast it could not get levelled again.  

-"out roll"---------->Citabria...er...lol. The early P38s could not roll with a Superfortress  . And after the hydraulic ailerons were introduced, the P38 only outrolled Fw190s at extreme speeds, because at low speeds the Lightning still rolled like a superfortress  .

-"out turn"-------->probably yes. Never was a problem, you know, as German fighter doctrine never involved turnfights but pure BnZ tactics.

-"out climb"------->er...you know the Me109G was a german plane, right?...come on.

-"or get away from it"------->was simple. The german puts the nose down, and starts a fast dive. The P38 has two options:

1-say bye to the kraut plane
2-end like a red spot on the landscape surrouded by his disintegrated P38's debris.

And dont forget that most early P38s used in europe used to return to Britain with one engine seized

The LW pilots, when asked, said they feared the P38 a lot, all except Adolf Galland, who said that it was little better than a Me110.

Galland knew his job, but I am sure the P38 was much better than a Me110  . Anyway this shows that the P38 wasn't that terrifying.

The reason of that awesome reputation between the German pilots was the massive difference from the "classic" american ETO planes, the P51 and the P47. The 51 and 47 were heavy, low powerloaded planes with poor turning capability and acceleration.

The P38 was a better turner (Still not a turnfighter IMO), much better accelerator and climber than the other two. So the tactics the LW pilots were used to employ against the P51 and P47 simply didnt work with the P38. But the plane itself wasnt, IMO, as good as a P51.

[Nath-BDP]

 

the P-38L was a nightmare for the LW. they could not out dive, out roll, out turn, out climb or get away from it.

Yea thats why it was hardly ever used for A2A in the ETO after late 43...

[Ripsnort]

Nath is spot on here, I've read several accounts of LW pilots grinning from ear to ear when they saw a P38 in battle, first, they could ID it easily, second, they had an easy kill due to its poor performance.  Please don't force me to route thru all my books, take it for my word, more than 1 pilot commented on the P38 being a non-threat in the ETO.