Author Topic: Scrubbing Shots on Vert Reversals  (Read 1373 times)

Offline Ardy123

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3417
Scrubbing Shots on Vert Reversals
« on: January 30, 2010, 04:01:24 AM »
When pulling a vertical reversal, How do you scrub the shot so you go right next to his gun sight, but not through it? I wonder because if you get it close to their sight, they will usually prematurely bring out their nose for the shot, often causing them to loose in the rolling (and/or) vertical scissors.

Also, I know about rolling the plane to give the other guy the smallest profile possible of your plane, but beyond that...

Thanks.
Yeah, that's right, you just got your rear handed to you by a fuggly puppet!
==Army of Muppets==
(Bunnies)

Offline grizz441

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7000
Re: Scrubbing Shots on Vert Reversals
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2010, 04:37:51 AM »
When pulling a vertical reversal, How do you scrub the shot so you go right next to his gun sight, but not through it? I wonder because if you get it close to their sight, they will usually prematurely bring out their nose for the shot, often causing them to loose in the rolling (and/or) vertical scissors.

Also, I know about rolling the plane to give the other guy the smallest profile possible of your plane, but beyond that...

Thanks.

The trick is timing it perfectly and maneuvering sharply out of his guns.  If you start to do it too early say 600yds... he has time to readjust and shoot you still.  If you do it too late, he shoots you before you initiate.  The key is to do it just before he begins to fire (due to net leg).  Don't be afraid to let him get close as long as you have it visualized in your head how you are going to dodge him.  The closer you let him get and still being able to effectively dodge will also enhance the effectiveness of your next maneuver.

Offline Agent360

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 780
      • http://troywardphotography.com
Re: Scrubbing Shots on Vert Reversals
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2010, 09:04:52 AM »
As your plane rolls inverted  (canopy down) at the top you can neg G push to delay your nose. The bandit is trying to time your nose drop across his guns. If you delay your nose drop by neg G push while inverted at the top you will force him to roll too soon. Therefore either sliding just past him or actually getting guns yourself.

If you slide down to him you can side slip and stall with the rudder. I always try to make the bandit roll inverted here and I go canopy up and stall both wings all flaps out and wait for the bandit snap it ....after that it is  ramming close but your inside and ready for guns.

The object is to bait him to guns on (pure pursuit). Each time he does this he is pulling to stall and becoming unstable. I always try to keep my canopy opposite from his....as in the bottom of both planes facing each other. THis makes the bandit want to roll to get guns. Since you are expecting this it is easy to time your roll such that you catch him dropping his nose in a near zero airspeed state.

Offline Big Rat

  • AH Training Corps
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1605
Re: Scrubbing Shots on Vert Reversals
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2010, 09:33:18 AM »
Grizz and Agent, gave good advice :aok,  I'm actually going to try and simplify it a bit more.  Think of the nose of the enemy plane and think of a cone that are his easy gun solutions.  The farther away you are from the nose of the plane the bigger his cone will be and the longer he has time to react to keep you in this cone.  "Please don't make fun of my cone anology, couldn't think of a better visual picture :lol".  The closer you are, the smaller his cone and the less time he has to react.  This is all basically what Grizz said, but trying to look at the bandit as I do in close quarters.  If you can visualize this cone of danger, it will help you stay out of it.  The trick is staying close enough to this cone to keep them pushing for the shot but actually getting them in a worse position/situation.

 :salute
BigRat 
When you think the fight might be going bad, it already has.
Becoming one with the Hog, is to become one with Greatness, VF-17 XO & training officer BigRat

Offline pervert

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3968
Re: Scrubbing Shots on Vert Reversals
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2010, 10:21:07 AM »
Hmmm if its what I'm thinking of I recently found a solution to this, I'd often find myself in this scenario with certain people I'm fighting. Usually with a lot more e but ending up plop in front of their guns or a credible firing solution in some way because I was faster or later stalling.

The trick is recognizing the situation before it happens, usually they will be at one side or another in the vert and you have no chance of pulling guns on them, do a gentle slow spiral in the vert turning away from them max out every last drop of your extra e by the time they drop their nose back for the shot you should just have moved out of guns and are stalling out yourself to drop for a shot on them.

To continue trying to pull guns on people in this situation is suicide its only a matter of time before they get you and with virtually no danger of being shot themselves.

Offline JunkyII

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8428
Re: Scrubbing Shots on Vert Reversals
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2010, 10:26:52 AM »
  "Please don't make fun of my cone anology, couldn't think of a better visual picture :lol". 
 :salute
BigRat 
Lets call it a "fatal funnel"  :aok :D
DFC Member
Proud Member of Pigs on the Wing
"Yikes"

Offline Big Rat

  • AH Training Corps
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1605
Re: Scrubbing Shots on Vert Reversals
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2010, 02:40:01 PM »
Lets call it a "fatal funnel"  :aok :D

I like that :aok  Can I use that :pray :lol

 :salute
BigRat
When you think the fight might be going bad, it already has.
Becoming one with the Hog, is to become one with Greatness, VF-17 XO & training officer BigRat

Offline JunkyII

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8428
Re: Scrubbing Shots on Vert Reversals
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2010, 02:48:28 PM »
I like that :aok  Can I use that :pray :lol

 :salute
BigRat
yep :aok :salute
DFC Member
Proud Member of Pigs on the Wing
"Yikes"

Offline BillyD

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 827
      • Das Army of Muppets
Re: Scrubbing Shots on Vert Reversals
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2010, 12:16:14 AM »
The trick is timing it perfectly and maneuvering sharply out of his guns.  If you start to do it too early say 600yds... he has time to readjust and shoot you still.  If you do it too late, he shoots you before you initiate.  The key is to do it just before he begins to fire (due to net leg).  Don't be afraid to let him get close as long as you have it visualized in your head how you are going to dodge him.  The closer you let him get and still being able to effectively dodge will also enhance the effectiveness of your next maneuver.

Ah Fieldmarschall hittin the nail on the head ;)
As your plane rolls inverted  (canopy down) at the top you can neg G push to delay your nose. The bandit is trying to time your nose drop across his guns. If you delay your nose drop by neg G push while inverted at the top you will force him to roll too soon. Therefore either sliding just past him or actually getting guns yourself.

If you slide down to him you can side slip and stall with the rudder. I always try to make the bandit roll inverted here and I go canopy up and stall both wings all flaps out and wait for the bandit snap it ....after that it is  ramming close but your inside and ready for guns.

The object is to bait him to guns on (pure pursuit). Each time he does this he is pulling to stall and becoming unstable. I always try to keep my canopy opposite from his....as in the bottom of both planes facing each other. THis makes the bandit want to roll to get guns. Since you are expecting this it is easy to time your roll such that you catch him dropping his nose in a near zero airspeed state.

hey neat twist...gotta try that ;)


One other interesting factor here is with some aircraft the "fatal funnel" has a bit more...uh wiggle room. Hispano and 50 cal birds and thier high speed turn/ high G load ballistics can still make you lose some parts by pulling up and spraying  :( keep in mind an F4U can readjust and  blast you in a near blackout/blackout G pull while a K4 would be rendered nearly harmless ;) Adjust and bait accordingly

anywhoo

Ardy I'd have to say you are quite adept at this aspect of ACM already. I feel that vert reversals are a crapshoot at some points, it gives you a fighting chance a good amount of the time..... but I've found sticks that wont bite  ( Mtnman comes to mind, he'll just pull away and go set a trap for you  ) and people who just get lucky. I've got craploads of videos of perfect examples and complete failures if you want to study them....I'll post if you are interested, but again I think you got this down already.
 :rock  on bro


« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 12:29:58 AM by BillyD »
*ARMY OF MUPPETS
*K$
*Hot Soup Mafia
*@#$@#  YO COUCH CREW

Offline Ardy123

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3417
Re: Scrubbing Shots on Vert Reversals
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2010, 05:07:38 AM »
Ardy I'd have to say you are quite adept at this aspect of ACM already. I feel that vert reversals are a crapshoot at some points, it gives you a fighting chance a good amount of the time..... but I've found sticks that wont bite  ( Mtnman comes to mind, he'll just pull away and go set a trap for you  ) and people who just get lucky. I've got craploads of videos of perfect examples and complete failures if you want to study them....I'll post if you are interested, but again I think you got this down already.
 :rock  on bro


Ty, its not the vert reversals, I can do that, its making tips on baiting the other guy to screw it up. I see air combat as, step 1, learn how to do the ACM, step 2, trick the other guy so he does something stupid.
Yeah, that's right, you just got your rear handed to you by a fuggly puppet!
==Army of Muppets==
(Bunnies)

Offline BillyD

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 827
      • Das Army of Muppets
Re: Scrubbing Shots on Vert Reversals
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2010, 09:18:08 AM »
so he does something stupid.

Aww hell, just fly a spit 16 and pinwheel all over. Everyone else will be so mesmerized they'll fly on by and let you kill them  :banana:
*ARMY OF MUPPETS
*K$
*Hot Soup Mafia
*@#$@#  YO COUCH CREW