Author Topic: 76mm Sherman V.S. Panther  (Read 9307 times)

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: 76mm Sherman V.S. Panther
« Reply #75 on: February 12, 2010, 01:00:56 PM »
Yes read back, who other then ground troops did any Sherman that landed on D-Day fight. No German panzer divisions were there for the Shermans to fight. Operation Cobra was scheduled for July 18th, but weather delayed it until the 24th. You gave me book pages to one book . I have posted many other internet sources. How many people here have the book you are quoting from, my guess is very few. All anyone interested in this topic has to do is google it. They will find many many reference sources to anything from board gamer web sites to online WW2 forums that all indicate that in fact 76mm armed shermans were in Normandy . Did any see combat until operation Cobra? No! But no mention anywhere does it say that had to specifically ship out 76mm Shermans just for operation Cobra or hold any back until then.

There were no 76mm Shermans that took part in the Normandy landings, none were on the invasion ships sitting offshore.  I've already posted my source information so I'm not going to post it again.

The First Army didn't receive the 76mm Sherman until July of 1944 (source listed in previous post) and the 3rd Army didn't start to receive them until later September of 1944.

Even though there were sufficient numbers of the 76mm Sherman to start fielding units prior to the Normandy landings, standard US Army doctrine at the time emphasized the importance of the infantry support role of the tank.  The HE round used by the 76mm Sherman was much weaker than that of the HE round for the existing 75mm Sherman.  As such, many US Armored Division commanders initially didn't accept the 76mm Sherman.  This was probably the main reason why the 76mm Sherman did not take part in the Normandy landings.

It wasn't until the 75mm Sherman started to encounter German Panther tanks that finally convinced US Army commanders that better main gun was needed, which resulted in the 76mm Sherman finally being deployed in July '44.  The Third Army still held out with the 75mm until they got chewed up by Panthers during the Battle of Arracourt, only then did the Third Army started to deploy the 76mm Sherman.

take up valuable space? What space? Space for more 75mm Shermans?

If the 76mm Sherman were on the invasion ships like you claimed and since they weren't used during the invasion, yes, all they did was take up space that could have been used for resources needed for the invasion landing.  Since we've already shown that there weren't any 76mm Shermans that took part in the Normandy landing and didn't land on mainland Europe untill July of 1944, it's a rather moot point.


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All the reference material I have read say the first Shermans to be fitted with 76mm guns was introduced into the production lines in February of 1944. Now considering that the Americans were stockpiling 75mm armed Shermans long before the 76mm came on line. It would make sense that only a small number of 76mm Shermans were mixed in with the standard 75mm Shermans for the D-Day landings.

Yes, by the time of the Normandy landings there were sufficient numbers of 76mm Shermans to start deploying them to front line units.  However, as I explained earlier in this post, US Armored Division commanders were hesitant about accepting them due to the weaker HE rounds it used.

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Now ...again speculation. I would have to say the the allies knew they would have trouble with the German tanks, why up-gun a Sherman with a British 17lber gun and with a 76mm gun if your current tanks could do the job. The first documented action for the 76mm armed Shermans was in July of that year, a  few weeks past the landings. Since the Germans didn't deploy their panzer divisions for 2 weeks after the landing and some up to 4 weeks it would make sense that no real armor battles took place with the 76mm Shermans until operation Cobra. That being said below is more information on the 76mm Shermans indicating that indeed there were 76mm Shermans available for the Normandy landings. There is more information out there that supports the fact there were 76mm Shermans that landed in Normandy then not. All you have to do is look.

The US Army never tested the 76mm Sherman against the Panther, all they did were tests against armored plating that suggested that the 76mm gun was adequate for their needs.  Had they tested it against the captured Panthers they had, they would have found out that the 76mm could not penetrate the glacis plate at any range and only the center of the mantlet at 100 meters.  Unfortunately, 76mm Sherman crews found this out the hard way when they encounted the Panther in July of 1944.


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Sherman tank with 76mm gun:
To increase firepower the Ordnance Department developed the 76mm gun M1 and M1A1, starting in July 1942. Tests showed that the existing M4 series turret was too small to accommodate the extra length of this weapon and the turret of the T20/T23 medium tank was adopted and suitably modified. The 76mm gun installation was standardised and introduced in production lines from February 1944 and vehicles so fitted were available in time for the Normandy landings and subsequent combat in NW Europe. Suffix '(76mm)' indicated vehicles with this gun. A modified 76mm gun M1A1C or M1A2 with muzzle-brake was later introduced.

The above shows nothing other than a brief development history of the 76mm Sherman and not its deployment history.


ack-ack
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: 76mm Sherman V.S. Panther
« Reply #76 on: February 12, 2010, 01:03:34 PM »
Maybe instead of trying to force someone to produce the evidence wanted you should simply search for it with an open mind yourself. As stated.... if anyone wanted the truth all they would have to do is google it and read for themselves what has to be said regarding the topic. All of them can't be wrong.

If you're going to present something as fact, it is incumbent on you to provide the information (sources) that back up those facts you've presented.  So far, you've failed in that and instead try and wow us with bona fides that amount to basically you having a few books and autographs.


ack-ack
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: 76mm Sherman V.S. Panther
« Reply #77 on: February 12, 2010, 01:04:46 PM »
Operation Cobra was part of the Normady campaign. It was the American breakout from Normandy. Saying the 76mm Sherman was used in Normandy is not the same as saying it was used on D-Day.

Regards,

Hammer

BigPlay made the claim that the 76mm Sherman did take part in the invasion and that a 100+ were loaded up on the invasion ships.


ack-ack
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: 76mm Sherman V.S. Panther
« Reply #78 on: February 12, 2010, 01:10:36 PM »

booohoooo. No page numbers It cant be true. So the internet is a bad source. Whatever. Continue to swim in your own filth, You are always so confrontational when someone has another point of view, you must be a kid.I am done with attempting to converse with you. It's rather pointless.

who cares what you believe. The sliver of my time I'm willing to give you starts and stops in this forum. Not one molecule of you has any impact on what I own and what I don't own so any speculation about me is and remains in your head. Also why post links up when a simple subject search will suffice. My guess is I'm right about you being a youngster. Too much petty immaturity from you to indicate anything else. (personal attacks, name calling, a constant need to denounce any and all posts that shed any other light then yours)

My guess in your 20's somewhere. No grown man would make a childish reference to his Glock as you have at the bottom of all your posts. I also doubt that you own one but is nothing more then another kid laying claim to anything and everything he wants but can't have. But go ahead and tell me you don't have one you have 20.
I'm glad to see that you settled on a Jeep logo for your avatar instead of a Ferrari. At least I can even believe you have a Jeep.

Can you try and not resort to insults and personal attacks in this thread?  I've noticed that in every single thread you've posted in, as soon as someone starts to question your "facts" or sources or has proven you incorrect, you resort to childish insults and personal attacks while at the same time trying to play the 'hurt martyr'.

I, like GtoRA2, seriously doubt you've even read anything on the Sherman like you've claimed as so far all you've done is post incorrect information.


ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
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Offline BigPlay

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Re: 76mm Sherman V.S. Panther
« Reply #79 on: February 12, 2010, 01:14:20 PM »
See Rules #2, #4
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 04:01:23 PM by Skuzzy »

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: 76mm Sherman V.S. Panther
« Reply #80 on: February 12, 2010, 01:18:38 PM »
See Rule #2
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 04:01:37 PM by Skuzzy »
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
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Offline GtoRA2

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Re: 76mm Sherman V.S. Panther
« Reply #81 on: February 12, 2010, 01:52:42 PM »
Wow Ack, I think that is going to leave a mark.

Good posts, my references all back up everything you posted.



Offline GtoRA2

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Re: 76mm Sherman V.S. Panther
« Reply #82 on: February 12, 2010, 01:56:03 PM »
See Rules #2, #4
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 04:01:55 PM by Skuzzy »

Offline GtoRA2

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Re: 76mm Sherman V.S. Panther
« Reply #83 on: February 12, 2010, 01:57:18 PM »
See Rule #2
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 04:02:12 PM by Skuzzy »

Offline hammer

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Re: 76mm Sherman V.S. Panther
« Reply #84 on: February 12, 2010, 02:24:20 PM »
BigPlay made the claim that the 76mm Sherman did take part in the invasion and that a 100+ were loaded up on the invasion ships.


ack-ack

Concur. I thought perhaps he used this quote

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Beginning in 1944, some Shermans mounted the higher-velocity 76 mm M1 gun giving them anti-tank firepower comparable to the Soviet T-34/85 and many of the AFVs it encountered, particularly the Pz III, Pz IV, and StuG vehicles. The 76 mm armed vehicles first saw combat in Normandy, where half the German tanks encountered were the 45-ton Panther. With a regular APBC ammunition the 76 mm could reliably knock out a Panther only with a shot to its flank. Firing later HVAP ammunition

and interpreted "Normandy" to mean D-Day. I was attempting to point out they were not synonymous.

Regards,

Hammer
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 02:29:10 PM by hammer »
Hammer

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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: 76mm Sherman V.S. Panther
« Reply #85 on: February 12, 2010, 02:53:28 PM »
I know, how funny is this guy? I won't blame his behavior on his age either, Mensa is far better at debate and he is what 17?



Yeah, I know.  The last debate I got into with him, he resorted to putting down the town I live in instead of trying to support his argument. 


ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline BigPlay

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Re: 76mm Sherman V.S. Panther
« Reply #86 on: February 12, 2010, 03:34:49 PM »
See Rule #4
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 03:59:48 PM by Skuzzy »

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: 76mm Sherman V.S. Panther
« Reply #87 on: February 12, 2010, 03:54:18 PM »
See Rule #2
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 04:00:03 PM by Skuzzy »
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline GtoRA2

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Re: 76mm Sherman V.S. Panther
« Reply #88 on: February 12, 2010, 03:58:24 PM »
See Rule #2
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 04:00:19 PM by Skuzzy »

Offline Nemisis

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Re: 76mm Sherman V.S. Panther
« Reply #89 on: February 12, 2010, 06:25:41 PM »
Everyone just stop breakin' rules, you're gona get the thread locked  :cry. See, you even made my smiley cry.
All man needs to be happy is a home, his wife, and a place in the world

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