Author Topic: The MOSQUITO fighter  (Read 9719 times)

Offline RASTER

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The MOSQUITO fighter
« on: February 07, 2010, 05:31:51 PM »
Been piloting the AH version of the Mosquito for a few weeks and I am not happy with the representitive speed. It was reported that the Mosquito was at one time the worlds fastest aircraft. Those that disagree should try and change the Wikipedia.
In AH the majority are piloting 109's / 190's / P51's / La 7's and Spitfires. These planes seem to have a speed advantage on the Mosquito while the Mosquito was reportedly ( "easily" ) capable of over 400mph. (there are many sources). However, like many of the top planes in AH, these speeds were conditionally short bursts with particular combinations of settings and elements. However, having been chased down by most of the German pursuit fighters, I feel like a fat man running up hill and it simply can't be correct according to a large percentage of historical reports which favour the Mosquito not only being a fast bomber but a faster fighter. In fact the P38 has been described as the American Mosquito. And what is the comparison. Certainly the Mosquitos Rolls Royce Merlin engines were consider superior to the P38 Allisons. The wings are of similar length with the Mosquito being slightly higher. The Mosquito because of its cold molded construction had the very smoothest surface which as you may know, a riveted surface can take 15mph from the top speed of an aircraft.
Add to this the number of Mosquitos made during the war (6000 plus) and the very very few ever shot down ( in the few hundreds ) even though the type of combat they engaged in would indicate the number would be greater. In AH, with no bomb load, I find it impossible to outrun most of the planes I encounter. How can that be historically correct when the historical numbers indicate so few were pursued to their demise by the 109/190 fighters.
 How is this explained when we know that Germany had a strong network of Radar. They knew when the bombers were coming and had time to intercept. We are told that the Mosquito pilots liked to fly in low at tree top level. So how does that tally up when so few were shot down. Simple, you can't shoot a plane that you cant ketch. As you know in AH that combination is certain destruction. So, its on the table again, EITHER THE 109 /190 SPEEDS ARE TO HIGH OR THE MOSQUITOS SPEED IS REPRESENTED AS LOW.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 05:35:11 PM by RASTER »

Offline Karnak

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Re: The MOSQUITO fighter
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2010, 06:46:34 PM »
The issue is a lot more complex than that.

The Mosquito's speed in AH is correct for a Mosquito FB.Mk VI with Merlin 25s running on 100 octane fuel with flame dampers for night operations.

The speeds of the other aircraft you mentioned are also correct in AH.

Some Mosquitoes could do over 400mph at altitude.  Examples would be marks like the B.Mk XVI and NF.Mk.30.

You also need to look at the year that the Mosquito was the fastest.  For example, when the Mosquito FB.Mk VI was introduced in mid-1943 it was the fastest warplane in the world, at low altitude, when it had ejector stacks.  Many of us Mossie fans have been trying to get the flame dampers removed and for the flight model to be redone with ejector stacks when the Mossie is updated graphically, but even then it will not be the fastest airplane at low altitude in a world of 1944 and 1945 monsters.

Here is my prediction of the Mosquito Mk VI with ejector stacks.  The yellow line is the Mosquito in AH, the yellow line with the red border is the Mosquito Mk VI configured for daylight operations with ejector stacks:
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Offline Jabberwock

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Re: The MOSQUITO fighter
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2010, 07:05:58 PM »
First of all, it is necessary to understand that during the war there were two distinct “families” of Mosquitoes, with different Merlin engine marks fitted to the different families.

The early variants were powered by single stage, two speed Merlin 20 family engines (21, 23 and 25s off the top of my head).

With these engines their max speeds topped out at about 360-385 mph, depending on the exact engine type and external fittings, armament, weight, drop tanks ect, ect, ect.

The Merlin 20 engine types were fastest at low to medium altitudes, with altitudes for best level speeds ranging from 14,000 to 22,000 feet. Sea level speeds ranged from 310 mph to 355 mph, getting progressively faster during the war as more powerful engines with higher permitted boost ratings were allowed.

The second “family” were powered by the two speed, two stage Merlin 60/70 engines (61, 71, 72, 73, again IIRC), and were introduced later in the war (early to mid 1943 if memory serves correctly).

These were more specialised for high altitude work, with typical best speeds of 395-415 mph at 24,000 to 29,000 feet.

The Mosquito in Aces High is a FB VI, a fighter bomber with a top speed of about 375 mph

Secondly, the combat environment in flight simulators is not necessarily the same as that in the real world. Mosquito pilots could, and did, outrun enemy single seat fighters (FW 190s/Bf 109s) in level flight, at both high and low levels. But considerations such as endurance, weather, engine condition et al are unimportant in a flight simulator, whereas they are very important in the real world.

Even though the Mosquito was fast, there was no guarantee that it could simply outrun its opponents. There are multiple accounts of Mosquitoes being overhauled by German fighters in a stern chase and shot down, particularly at lower altitudes. There is even a German account of an FW-190 having its base bombed by Mosquitoes, taking off in pursuit and then shooting down the bomber after a chase.

As the war progressed, the relative performance of the Mosquito at low altitude was overhauled by progress with German fighters. Where  the Mosquito came to be almost immune, and where Merlin 60/70 powered marks spent most of their time, was above 25,000 feet and at night.

If a Mosquito is cruising at excess of 330-350 mph (twice what a Lancaster or B-17 would cruise at), at 27,000 ft or higher, then the problem for German interceptors is massively multiplied. Not only do they have half (or less) of the time to track, predict and locate the target of a Mosquito bomber, they then have to get their fighter up to that altitude, which generates another penalty in terms of time, and also in fuel burnt (and hence range to intercept).

This is where the Mosquito was in its element.

With the FB Mk VI, a low-medium altitude fighter-bomber, the interception picture is a little easier for its opponents. Additionally, the performance differential is in favour of the German aircraft, particularly once the later G model 109s and the FW 190A5 are introduced.

Offline bozon

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Re: The MOSQUITO fighter
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2010, 03:06:31 AM »
By 1945 the mosquito was not faster than the fastest fighters. Not even the high alt bomber models which were faster than the fighter models. In 1943 the situation was very different. Also, our definition of "fast" is a little misleading: The top level speed is one thing, cruise speed is another. Even in its early days, the top level speed was only just enough to outrun 109s/190s.

The removal of the flame-dampers will make a big difference for the MK.VI at low alt - it will not make it fastest, but it will move it significantly up the rank and past the agile turny wiggly fighters it has little chance to beat if caught on the deck. The cruise speed was the real asset of the mosquito and in that department it was the top plane till the end of the war. This aspect is down-played in AH since everyone fly about on full throttle and start crying if the fuel burn multiplier forces them to throttle down. In reality, the cruise speed of mosquito on long range sorties was higher than the escorting fighters. This forced the mosquitoes to slow down for the escorts to keep up and shortened their range. The mosquitoes rarely got close escorts since day operations was not their main mode of operation anyway. Exceptions were photo-recce missions, shorter range special missions (escorted by typhoons), or coastal command strikes. In the latter they were sometimes escorted by P51s, but often had to slow down for the Beufighters anyway. Eventually they were just escorting themselves.
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Offline Infidelz

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Re: The MOSQUITO fighter
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2010, 11:24:51 AM »
"Examples would be marks like the B.Mk XVI and NF.Mk.30."

We just needz some new models like the endless variety of one-oh-nine! Nein! NEINs das vier haben.

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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: The MOSQUITO fighter
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2010, 12:25:42 PM »
The P-38 the "American Mosquito"?  Never heard that one before.


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Offline RASTER

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Re: The MOSQUITO fighter
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2010, 04:50:00 PM »
The AH Mosquito at sea level reads a maximum cruise speed of 327-328. There is so much controversy regarding all the data but if Karnak is near correct, 327 in 1943 does not sound like a world record holding speed. In 1943, at altitude the Spitfire was doing 408mph.

As Karnak has also pointed out the issue is complex. In the pilots handbook these things become evident. Some of the top speeds are quoted as cruise for fuel economy, then there are notes on overheating at certain throttle and auto blowers and some 5 minute limits on certain combinations of elements. These things are common to most aircraft and honestly, durability is a big factor. Just refresh your memory on what modified Reno mustang engines put out for Horse Power. These same ww2 engines could put out 4000hp no problem, but try to cross the Atlantic with that type of engine, which many Mosquitos did unsuccessfully in some cases. There is no indication that I have read yet which identifies the engines which produced the worlds fastest aircraft being any less reliable than those ferried from Canada.

The AH Mosquito is not the only Mossie that seems slow. I have flown the Warbirds Mosquito too and it also was slow but the AH 'wooden wonder' is the slowest. Certainly as Jabberwoke has reported, Axis pilots have shot down a few Mosquites in straight pursuit. There could be any number of reason why two or three are reported downed in this way and Jabberwoke knows it, but none of this may have anything to do with speed but more with engine failure or essential components being damaged by ground fire as one would expect on a airfield attack.

Two things are evident, there isn't a decent Mossie to be flown anywhere online and for the same reason a pilot cant find a decent B29 either. 109's , 190's, Spits and Mustangs are found everywhere and have been for years. Everyones favourite, but try to find two that pilot anything similar from one sim to another. With all the fuge packing, why not error on the side which supports history rathar than tries to write in exceptions. No this plane is slow...not fast.   

Offline Karnak

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Re: The MOSQUITO fighter
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2010, 04:58:48 PM »
Last time I tried WB the Mosquito Mk VI was powered by Merlin 21s and couldn't break 320mph on the deck using WEP.  The AH Mosquito VI does 337mph using WEP on the deck, which matches the charts that I have for a Merlin 25 powered Mosquito VI with flame dampers at +18lbs boost.  The model is correct, for what it is, I just want the dampers taken out of the model.

I do have quite a few books on the Mosquito in particular and this is not a subject I speak on casually or with a lack of sources.
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Offline Jabberwock

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Re: The MOSQUITO fighter
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2010, 07:59:31 PM »
The AH Mosquito at sea level reads a maximum cruise speed of 327-328. There is so much controversy regarding all the data but if Karnak is near correct, 327 in 1943 does not sound like a world record holding speed. In 1943, at altitude the Spitfire was doing 408mph.

What speed was the Spitfire doing at sea level?  ;)

Do you know the best altitudes for speed in the Mosquito? Hint, sea level is not one of them.


Here are some wartime comments from the Air Fighting Development Unit on the Mosquito VI with Merlin 23 engines at +14 lbs boost, conducted in March 1943:

Quote
Performance: “The aircraft fitted with Merlin 23 engines was capable of about 317 mph at sea level when flying as an Intruder or Fighter/Bomber with bombs on. With bombs gone, the speed is about 322 mph and as a fighter without bomb racks about 327 mph (+14 lb. boost in all cases).

Full throttle heights at 14 lb. boost are about 9,000 and 17,000 feet for M.S. and F.S. gear respectively. Al these heights the following approximate speeds are obtainable for the fighter without external racks:-

9,000 feet  368 mph
17,000 feet  380 mph

The Intruder with bombs on is about 10 mph less than these figures and with “bombs-gone” about 5 mph lower.

By comparison with the latest obtainable figures, the FW.190 and Me.190G2 are more or less the same speed at sea level, the Mosquito is faster than both at 9,000 feet but slower than the Me. 109 at 17,000 feet, and only a little faster than the FW.190.

The RAF at this point of the war was still considerably underestimating the max level speeds of German single engine fighters, based on its earlier tests of captured German fighters.

The report goes on to assess the Mosquito against the Spitfire Mk V, Mk IX, Mk XII and the Typhoon:

Quote
Low altitude - The Mosquito was outpaced by all the above types except by the Spitfire V, and was out-climbed by all of them. In manoeuverability, the single engine fighters were able to throw the Mosquito off their tails and get on the Mosquito themselves, while the Mosquito was unable to disengage whenever a fighter got into position astern


So, the RAF considered that the Mk IX, Mk XII and Typhoon could outpace the Mosquito at low level.

Top speeds for the Mk IX at sea level were 330-335 mph at sea level (LF IX with Merlin 66). Top speed for the Mk XII at sea level were about 345 mph. For the Typhoon about 340 mph (+7 lb. boost) or 355 mph (+9 lb. boost),

Top speeds for the FW 190 A5 were about 345-350 mph at sea level. The 109G-2 had top sea level speeds of about 325 mph (Kennblatt shows 525 kph).


« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 08:06:37 PM by Jabberwock »

Offline Karnak

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Re: The MOSQUITO fighter
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2010, 09:50:02 PM »
Jabberwock,

You realize the Mosquito Mk VI with Merlin 25s, by far the most common engine right from the start, could do 350-355 on the deck, right?
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Offline Jabberwock

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Re: The MOSQUITO fighter
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2010, 11:32:07 PM »
Speed was highly dependent on equipment fit and external condition. Bombs, racks, drop tanks, exhaust system, antenna, ect could result in as much as a 20 mph difference in speed at sea level.

A more historically realistic figure is 340-350 mph with +18 lbs Merlin 25s in Fighter Bomber configuration with tanks and and no saxophone exhausts. Maybe a pure day fighter, with no external racks or tanks, would be up at 355 mph at sea level, but I do wonder how common just such a configuration would be in late 1943/early 1944, when the Merlin 25 got cleared for +18 lb. boost.

Merlin 25s at +18lb. weren't producing quite as much power as Merlin 60 family engines at the same level of boost fitted to later Mosquito marks, which struggled to hit 345 mph at sea level.



Offline Karnak

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Re: The MOSQUITO fighter
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2010, 11:41:10 PM »
Jabberwock,

Sorry, but you are in error.  The NF.Mk 30, the fastest production Mosquito at 430mph, couldn't break 430mph on the deck.  Down low the Merlin 25s produce more power than the high blown Merlins.  The 350-355mph on the deck speed for a Mosquito FB.Mk VI is for one with ejector stacks, +18lbs boost and no external stores, though the bomb/DT hangars would still be there.
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Offline RASTER

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Re: The MOSQUITO fighter
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2010, 11:56:18 PM »
Not sure what level the Buzz bombs flew at but it was not exceptionally high. With a speed of approximately 360mph it would be impossible for a Mosquito as described by the preceeding data to keep up with one let alone ketch one from miles away. Absolutely impossible to ketch a Buz bomb at night if the information presented here concerning flame arrestors is not anything but misleading. It is without a doubt that Mosquitos were used to pursue, overtake and destroy the Buz Bombs along with a few very fast planes which were modified for the task. This includes the P51, which also needed special tuning. The modifications may not have been necessary in the Mosquito according to this excerpt, its accuracy is as doubfull as any other.

The Tempest fleet was built up to over 100 aircraft by September. Also, P-51 Mustangs and Griffon-engined Spitfire XIVs were tuned to make them almost fast enough, and during the short summer nights the Tempests shared defensive duty with de Havilland Mosquitoes.

It was without a doubt a very fast airplane and AH does not reflect this in the slightest...in fact, if only to find the truth, AH should include the V-1 in its simulation only to make it more obvious what the P51 could not do (without special tuning )and what the Tempest and Mosquito could. And what is so typical of this outrage is that the German war records are claiming their V-1 was traveling at a maximum cruise speed of 400mph....this is a typical outrage that simply cant be overlooked.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 12:10:20 AM by RASTER »

Offline Karnak

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Re: The MOSQUITO fighter
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2010, 12:21:34 AM »
First, the V1 interceptors, Spitfires, Mustangs and Mosquitoes all, were running on 150 octane, not 100 octane.  A Mosquito Mk VI on 150 octane would do about 375mph on the deck.  They also did not use flame dampers on the V1 interceptors.  What would be the point?

Second, all of the Merlin powered V1 interceptors used dives to get adequate overtake speed.  Only the Tempest, Spitfire Mk XIV and Meteors would run them down in level flight.
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Offline RASTER

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Re: The MOSQUITO fighter
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2010, 12:41:50 AM »
AH Mosquito would fall apart before it would get anywhere near the speeds needed to dive with success on a V-1. So the Spitfire 14 was the fastest plane in the world then?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 12:43:39 AM by RASTER »