Ain't nothin like a Jeep

[saggs]

Name one factory stock vehicle you can buy today that will climb that rock wall, even using the 6" of rock used in the video.
My regards,

Widewing

I can name 4 off the top of my head.  Troller T4, Unimog, Land Rover D90 and AMG Hummer.  I sure I could come up with more if I though about it awhile.  

[RTHolmes]

yeah...

Stock     Approach   Breakover   Depart   Clearance
Wrangler    44.3°       25.3°       40.4°      10.5"
D90         47°         35°         46°        13"

[Widewing]

I can name 4 off the top of my head.  Troller T4, Unimog, Land Rover D90 and AMG Hummer.  I sure I could come up with more if I though about it awhile.  

None of these vehicles are available in the U.S., so to which dealer would you go to purchase one?

In a head to head test of a Wrangler Sahara Unlimited and a Defender 110 done by a Brit auto magazine, the Wrangler won easily. 2dr vs 2dr would certainly end in the same result. I noticed that RTHolmes quotes 13" of ground clearance for the D90. Rover measures to the frame rails. Jeep measures to the lowest point of the differential pumpkin. If I measure to my frame rails, I have 12.6" of clearance with my 32" winter tires and 13.1" with the 33" Mud Terrains. How can the D90 have 13" of clearance at the differentials on 235/75-16, 29.8" tires? It can't. (Edit) I forgot to mention that for the D90 to be imported, it would have to meet US bumper regulations, which would seriously degrade its approach and departure angles. As it is now, the D90 has no real rear bumper and the front is minimal. If a Jeep owner goes to after market bumpers, the JK can do better than 50 degrees at both ends.



The Hummer H1 has been discontinued for several years. You can find a few H3s on dealer lots, but is largely inferior to a Wrangler Sport, and far behind a Rubicon. A stock H2 is badly outclassed. Then again, the H1 has some real limitations as well. Its massive weight makes it a poor choice for deep sand. In Iraq, Humvees routinely became stuck in deep sand. Usually due to the drivers not airing down, which is easy to do as the Humvee has a central tire pressure system that allows the driver to air down all four tires at the same time, while driving.

The Unimog is a commercial/military truck. Daimler Chrysler attempted to market it here, but there was almost no interest due to very high price. Some Unimogs have been imported, but strictly for off road use.

First, let me say that I like the Troller. It is a clever Wrangler knock off (combining many elements of the YJ and TJ series), built by a Brazilian subsidiary of Ford. It will never be imported because it fails to meet safety and emission requirements. Approach and departure angles are excellent, but minimum ground clearance (8.5") is nearly two inches less than the current JK Wrangler. It uses a Dana 44 rear axle with TracLok, as does the Wrangler Sport. Lockers do not appear to be an option, nor does it offer anything similar to the Jeep's patented Brake Lock Differentials. Jeep has purchased and analyzed several Trollers. One Jeep engineer commented that the Troller reminded them why it was decided to discontinue the TJ. Like the TJ, the Troller is simply older technology. One thing that Jeep owners have been howling for in the US for years is a diesel. The Troller's single rail diesel is something American's would love to have as a option. The problem to date is that such engines do not meet Federal emission standards. This will be rectified soon, because Jeep has a clean diesel in the pipeline and should be available before 2013.

Ford has been considering the upgrading the Troller for importation to the US. However, they are keenly aware that its look-a-likeness to Jeep is a major problem. Thus, some Ford executives have considered a fresh body design along the lines of the first generation Bronco. As of now, no decision has been made on bringing it here. I, for one, would love to see Ford bring it into the USA.

Last year, when Chrysler was on the brink, Ford approached them about purchasing the Jeep Division. Chrysler turned Ford down flat, noting that Jeep was their most profitable Division. Too bad... I would love to see the JK fitted with an Eco-Boost engine and Ford's far better build quality.


My regards,

Widewing

[CAP1]

do you realize how steep 50 degrees is?

i highly doubt that 90% of jeep owners will ever go even half of that.

[RTHolmes]

In a head to head test of a Wrangler Sahara Unlimited and a Defender 110 done by a Brit auto magazine, the Wrangler won easily. etc.

iirc the test said the wrangler almost matched the defenders offroad capability, however they did like the wranglers turning circle and extra elbow room (it is a bit cramped in the LR )

I'm wondering about the clearance now (should have been 12.7" btw), the diff has a flat bottom but would still need to be only 3" from the axle line to give that much clearance on standard rubber. it does look like more than 10" though (I suspect thats the '90s D90), I'll have a look next time I see one.

didnt realise you couldnt buy em in the US. and yes the mog is very expensive, but then it it the best

[Widewing]

do you realize how steep 50 degrees is?

i highly doubt that 90% of jeep owners will ever go even half of that.

50 degrees of approach angle, not climbing angle. Although, the Wrangler can manage that as well. Approach angle is the angle of the terrain relative to level ground and the front of the vehicle. The closer the front wheels are to the front edge of the vehicle, the better the approach angle. For example, the Jeep Lower Forty concept vehicle has an approach angle of 90 degree because the 40" tires project out ahead of the grill.

The easiest way to improve approach angle is to remove the front bumper.


My regards,

Widewing

[Widewing]

iirc the test said the wrangler almost matched the defenders offroad capability, however they did like the wranglers turning circle and extra elbow room (it is a bit cramped in the LR )

I'm wondering about the clearance now (should have been 12.7" btw), the diff has a flat bottom but would still need to be only 3" from the axle line to give that much clearance on standard rubber. it does look like more than 10" though (I suspect thats the '90s D90), I'll have a look next time I see one.

didnt realise you couldnt buy em in the US. and yes the mog is very expensive, but then it it the best

What the magazine said was, "In practice, however, most drivers will find little difference between them in ability, if not driver-friendliness. The Defender fares less well here thanks to its cramped driving position, heavy clutch, occasional transmission shunt and massive turning circle."

Please remember that they compared the D110 to a Sahara rather than a Rubicon. The Rubi is the ultimate Wrangler in terms of off road ability.

This past weekend, the Project JK gang and friends went to Moab for two days of extreme off road fun... Note that none of their Wranglers are stock. Some are radically upgraded, others only mildly so. All completed the trip.

Here's Moby Dick, the lead JK.


Ready for the trail..


Refueling in Barstow...


Lined up for a photo op..


The entire group heads out.


Merrimac Butte.


Off camber... Hope they pee'd first.


Even the ladies will tackle Wipeout Hill.


In the canyons.


Out in the desert.


Big time articulation.


Time for dinner.


Someday, I'm going to get out to Utah and join these guys for a weekend... But, I'll need to install that 2.5" lift first.


My regards,

Widewing

[RTHolmes]

wow great location  got a friend who went mountain biking there, said it was awseome (apart from the sunburn hehe)


edit: whats the upturned triangle/loop for on the front bumper?

[VonMessa]

<SNIP>

Someday, I'm going to get out to Utah and join these guys for a weekend... But, I'll need to install that 2.5" lift first.


My regards,

Widewing

Promise you will let me know, or come through Philly and we'll convoy it out.    

My wife and I were in Kanab last year (overnight)  We left from Vegas in a rental, and went to to the North rim of the "big ditch" .  She loves Utah and she intentionally did not rent a Jeep (like we did last time we were in Nevada) because she (and I quote) "Knew the topography of where we were headed and wanted the rental returned in one piece without anything broken"      

[CAP1]

50 degrees of approach angle, not climbing angle. Although, the Wrangler can manage that as well. Approach angle is the angle of the terrain relative to level ground and the front of the vehicle. The closer the front wheels are to the front edge of the vehicle, the better the approach angle. For example, the Jeep Lower Forty concept vehicle has an approach angle of 90 degree because the 40" tires project out ahead of the grill.

The easiest way to improve approach angle is to remove the front bumper.


My regards,

Widewing

aahh.......i misunderstood. 

[Widewing]

wow great location  got a friend who went mountain biking there, said it was awseome (apart from the sunburn hehe)


edit: whats the upturned triangle/loop for on the front bumper?

That loop is called a Stinger. It prevents doing an "endo" (end over end roll), by causing the vehicle to pitch onto one side or the other. They also provide a place to attach a line when winching. The line is used to prevent the front from sliding or resist a roll over.

Below is a photo where an endo was stopped by the stinger. Not that he ended up in an enviable position though...   




My regards,

Widewing

[VonMessa]

wow great location  got a friend who went mountain biking there, said it was awseome (apart from the sunburn hehe)


edit: whats the upturned triangle/loop for on the front bumper?

Stinger bumper

(in theory) to protect your radiator, grill and hood for being grenaded in a rollover. They also serve to prevent endos when descending steep slopes. (in theory)

EDIT:  Ahh, WW beat me to it 

[Widewing]

Promise you will let me know, or come through Philly and we'll convoy it out.    

My wife and I were in Kanab last year (overnight)  We left from Vegas in a rental, and went to to the North rim of the "big ditch" .  She loves Utah and she intentionally did not rent a Jeep (like we did last time we were in Nevada) because she (and I quote) "Knew the topography of where we were headed and wanted the rental returned in one piece without anything broken"      

I'll let you know for sure... Probably not for a year or two at best. My schedule may allow a two or three weeks of time off by then. This year, we are headed to Hawaii for two weeks. Visiting my daughter and grand daughter in Helemano.


My regards,

Widewing

[Widewing]

More awesome shots from Moab...







My regards,

Widewing

[saggs]

Well Widewing, you didn't say anything about available in the US.  This is an international forum after all.     Besides, there are plenty of used Unimogs available in the USA.  Also I have seen a few Defenders on the roads in the US, I see a guy around here with a late 90's D90 quite often.  So I'm not so sure about the not available in the US stuff.  And then you talk about the D110, when I mentioned the D90.  Of course the longer 110 will not do as well. 

As for Unimog, I've seen two guys around here wheeling 70's era 404 or 406 series Unimogs.  I talked to one guy once he had a 76, can't remember which model exactly, said he picked it up for $6,000, pretty cheap compared to a new Jeep.  Not only is it more capable off road then any stock Jeep, it also can seat 12 people, and he pushes snow with it, oh and it's a diesel (I'm a big diesel fan).  And yes, you can buy new Unimogs in the US, I know a farmer in WY who bought 2 brand new U500s a couple of years ago for agriculture use, about a $120,000 each I think.  Really not that expensive when your talking about ag equipment, one is a dump bed, and one's a sprayer tank, both have PTO's, 3-point hitches front and rear, full hydralic hook-ups and turbo diesel power plants.  They came with a snowblade, crane, swather and some other implements I don't remember.  All in all Unimog > anything else on 4 wheels.

I love Bronco's too, and am hoping Ford brings it back someday, but they better do it right, the concept they showed back in 2003 I think was good, smaller more like the 1st gen ones with a 4cyl turbo diesel.  I had an uncle with a 71 ragtop Bronco, had a 302 V8, double t-case, detroit lockers front and rear, some lift, and 33" mickey thompsons.  I loved that rig, he sold it a few years back and sadly I couldn't afford it.  I would love to build up an old Bronco or Scout someday.

It seems that any serious Jeeper does not leave it stock anyway, I don't see a single stock vehicle in those photo's.  So all this stock vs. stock talk seems kind of moot anyway.

That last photo looks like the Top of the World trail.  Don't really need those super-duper Jeeps to do that, I did it in my Rodeo with only a 3" lift and 265/75-16s with an open front and LSD rear.