Ain't nothin like a Jeep

[RipChord929]

Usually, in my experience, the chain of events works something like this.. Buy new awesome tires , mount tires on wheels , mount wheels on rig , rubbing problems , Hmmmmm, need to move tires outward ... Now it's decision time .......

Buy new wheels with correct backspacing, (offset is a common motorcycle spoke lacing and tuning term) which doubles your cost, and add the price of the tire changeover to the new wheels?  Or, drop a single C/note for wheel spacers?

With the $$$ in question, I can see how it can be so attractive to go with wheel spacers! Especially when you are perfectly happy with the wheels you already have, except for the offset.. But mounting wheels on a vehicle like a stack of flapjacks is never the ideal arrangement, everybody knows that..

So ya pays yer money, and takes yer chances!  Just like everything else in life..   Best wishes to ya!  

  RC

[Widewing]

Zoom, the RIGHT way is to indeed use a wheel with the proper backspacing.  My buddy rotated his tires after every oil change.  He used to run 16" moab canyons on his TJ's.  It only took that one time to show anyone why a $100 set of spacers should be avoided.

There is no right way per se, relative to offset wheels or spacers. Offset wheels bring their own issues. Flex at the outside edge due to being cantilevered far out from the wheel hub and torque wind-up are two negative factors. Using 1.5" spacers with 6.25" backspacing moves the center of the wheel diameter to the center of the bearings, but there is next to zero flex as the there is no added offset in the wheel. 

The BEST solution is to invest in custom hub assemblies that move the entire hub centerline out 1.25". Except, these run about $650 per axle.


My regards,

Widewing

[Penguin]

Better safe than sorry, I suppose. 

-Penguin

[CAP1]

Usually, in my experience, the chain of events works something like this.. Buy new awesome tires , mount tires on wheels , mount wheels on rig , rubbing problems , Hmmmmm, need to move tires outward ... Now it's decision time .......

Buy new wheels with correct backspacing, (offset is a common motorcycle spoke lacing and tuning term) which doubles your cost, and add the price of the tire changeover to the new wheels?  Or, drop a single C/note for wheel spacers?

With the $$$ in question, I can see how it can be so attractive to go with wheel spacers! Especially when you are perfectly happy with the wheels you already have, except for the offset.. But mounting wheels on a vehicle like a stack of flapjacks is never the ideal arrangement, everybody knows that..

So ya pays yer money, and takes yer chances!  Just like everything else in life..   Best wishes to ya!  

  RC

using wheel spacers is about as safe as using compression fittings on a brake line.

[Widewing]

I took one of the wheel spacers into our QA department this morning and took detailed dimensions of the spacer.

We then rolled my spare in and took dimensions off of the wheel. We noted the material and performed hardness testing to determine the specific aluminum alloy.

We identified the wheel material as alloy 356-T6. The spacers are made from 6061-T6 alloy. 356-T6 has tensile strength of 30,000 PSI. 6061-T6 has a tensile strength of 45,000 PSI. This means that the spacer is 50% stronger than the wheel for a given thickness. However, the spacer is near 50% thicker.

We than constructed a 3D model of each using NX 3D CAD software.

We ran a finite element analysis of both to determine where peak stresses are and where each component is most likely to fail. The result is what I expected. In short, spacers are not the weak link. The wheel itself is 5x more likely to fail under severe loading than the well designed spacer.  

Gentlemen, regardless of opinions or myths, the Spidertrax wheel spacers are less dangerous than the wheels bolted to them. Don't waste your time arguing.

My JK prior to the installation of the Spidertrax spacers...

My JK after the installation of the spacers.



My regards,

Widewing

[CAP1]

I took one of the wheel spacers into our QA department this morning and took detailed dimensions of the spacer.

We then rolled my spare in and took dimensions off of the wheel. We noted the material and performed hardness testing to determine the specific aluminum alloy.

We identified the wheel material as alloy 356-T6. The spacers are made from 6061-T6 alloy. 356-T6 has tensile strength of 30,000 PSI. 6061-T6 has a tensile strength of 45,000 PSI. This means that the spacer is 50% stronger than the wheel for a given thickness. However, the spacer is near 50% thicker.

We than constructed a 3D model of each using NX 3D CAD software.

We ran a finite element analysis of both to determine where peak stresses are and where each component is most likely to fail. The result is what I expected. In short, spacers are not the weak link. The wheel itself is 5x more likely to fail under severe loading than the well designed spacer.  

Gentlemen, regardless of opinions or myths, the Spidertrax wheel spacers are less dangerous than the wheels bolted to them. Don't waste your time arguing.

My JK prior to the installation of the Spidertrax spacers...
(Image removed from quote.)
My JK after the installation of the spacers.
(Image removed from quote.)


My regards,

Widewing

if the wheel doesn't fail without the spacers in place, but it does fail with them there.......then there has to be a cause of this failure. if the only thing changed is that a spacer is/was added, then it would stand to reason that adding these spacers creates this problem, thus making them dangerous.

 my experience with them is in drag racing. a lot of guys buy the wrong offset wheel, and then stick too big of a tire in too small of a wheel well. this is why they place spacers in there.
 these same spacers also cause something to fail, be it the wheel, the wheel stud, or the spacer itself.

 one of the things i've seen with spacers, is somethign you noted. first of all, you could've probably visited the manufacturers website, to find they're made of the 6061 aluminum.  most aftermarket manufacturers state what type of aluminum they use.
 secondly, i believe that the two different types of aluminum expand and contract at different rates. this being the case, it can, and eventually will cause the lug nuts to loosen up. if they only loosen a bit, this can create the appearance that the wheel failed, when in fact(again) the problem was caused by the spacer inserted between the wheel and the hub.

possibly for low power applications, they withstand everything. i don't know about that. what i do know, is that i've seen more than my share of  vehicles towed in with wheels that mysteriously removed themselves, and they all had spacers on them.

 putting a wheel spacer on your car is as safe as using a compression fitting in a brake line.

[RipChord929]

LOL CAP, yep, there is that voice of experience again!  I've never used them on a 4x4 or street driver, or ANY competition ride..
Only on featherweight rigs where the loadings are very light, like sandrails or quads..  But, back in my shop days, I have had to deal with them on customers cars, instantly the price went UP, LOL!    I've also turned the work away because of it as well, (already wallowed out).. Just ain't worth the risk, or liability... What more can I say about that?

I don't know what jeeps are using for a bolt pattern these days.. But my old jeep uses the good old Ford F150 bolt pattern.. Wheels are common as dirt.. Every size, shape, material, offset, are easily available, new or used...  Lucky for me


all  RC

 
  

[GtoRA2]

LOL CAP, yep, there is that voice of experience again!  I've never used them on a 4x4 or street driver, or ANY competition ride..
Only on featherweight rigs where the loadings are very light, like sandrails or quads..  But, back in my shop days, I have had to deal with them on customers cars, instantly the price went UP, LOL!    I've also turned the work away because of it as well, (already wallowed out).. Just ain't worth the risk, or liability... What more can I say about that?

I don't know what jeeps are using for a bolt pattern these days.. But my old jeep uses the good old Ford F150 bolt pattern.. Wheels are common as dirt.. Every size, shape, material, offset, are easily available, new or used...  Lucky for me


all  RC

 
  

Fact is Spidertrax get run in tons of jeeps and they don't fail unless the owner doesn't follow the instructions.   But hey, your smarter and more experienced then all the people who run them and the engineers who designed them.   They must have one hell of a legal department to not get sued every time one fails due to them not being safe and all. 

[RipChord929]

Fact is Spidertrax get run in tons of jeeps and they don't fail unless the owner doesn't follow the instructions.   But hey, your smarter and more experienced then all the people who run them and the engineers who designed them.   They must have one hell of a legal department to not get sued every time one fails due to them not being safe and all. 

Thanks, I appreciate that! 

  RC

[Widewing]

Let's see, our engineering teams has designed significant portions of the Airbus A350 landing gear system. We engineered the latest landing gear system for the Boeing CH-47. Our hardware is on the F-35, F/A-18, F-16 and a number of other aircraft. This same engineering team has analyzed the Spirdertrax spacers and concluded that they are extremely strong, far stronger than they need to be. Over engineered. Utterly safe if installed properly. Like an offset wheel, they may accelerate bearing wear, but the offset is so little as to be insignificant.

In contrast, I've heard lots of opinions, but nothing concrete. No data. No failure data. No failure analysis. You state that you've seen broken drag racers that used wheel spacers. So? Who made them? What materials? Were they installed correctly? Were they hub centric or stud centric? You can't answer any of these questions with anything more than a shrug. All you know is that there were wheel spacers installed. That's like saying that an airplane crashed with a fat man aboard, so fat men must be dangerous when they get on an airplane.

As to spacers becoming "wallowed out", this is very unlikely to happen with hub centric spacers. They are located and supported on the hub, exactly like the wheels (you must run hub centric wheels on a JK). Lugs provide clamping force to retain the assembly on the hub and to transfer torque. The pattern is 5x5". With stud centric spacers, all dynamic forces are transmitted through the studs. These are far more likely to fail under combined high shear stresses. I would not consider stud centric spacers for my vehicle.


My regards,

Widewing



 

[Widewing]

Fact is Spidertrax get run in tons of jeeps and they don't fail unless the owner doesn't follow the instructions.   But hey, your smarter and more experienced then all the people who run them and the engineers who designed them.   They must have one hell of a legal department to not get sued every time one fails due to them not being safe and all. 

Gto, I wouldn't take any of this too seriously. Both RC and Cap are good men. They are both posting out of concern. I appreciate that. I completely disagree, but that does not take anything away from either gentleman. Both are first class. 


My regards,

Widewing

[GtoRA2]

Oh I know, I was trying to mess with Cap, and quoted the wrong guy.

[CAP1]

Gto, I wouldn't take any of this too seriously. Both RC and Cap are good men. They are both posting out of concern. I appreciate that. I completely disagree, but that does not take anything away from either gentleman. Both are first class. 


My regards,

Widewing

thanks dude.....i should've added in my last post that i wasn't attempting to be argumentative.......just what i've seen. 

[RipChord929]

Gto, I wouldn't take any of this too seriously. Both RC and Cap are good men. They are both posting out of concern. I appreciate that. I completely disagree, but that does not take anything away from either gentleman. Both are first class.  


My regards,

Widewing

Thanks Widewing!  Yeah, aint worth gettin a nose bent over this stuff.. Just Bench wheelin, the BB equivelent of hangin out in the shop and havin a beer, or two or three.. BS'in about 4WD stuff... On topic. If I had even the remotest indication that the "fat guy" would break on me, when I needed him most? Yeah I'd throw his donut off the plane, with the wheel spacers in his pockets!  LOL!

IMO, the brutal math of it is this. The wheel mounting flange is supposed to have only ONE thing mounted on it, the wheel! By adding the spacer, you've added another mechanical joint to the equasion, thus doubling the potential for failure... They can do all the engineering backflips they want, to try and minimize the added risk, but that extra joint, and added failure potential, is STILL there, when it WAS NOT before.. To me, that is not moving in a positive direction, equipment wise...

And guys that run auto repair shops see many thousands of vehicles..  See lots of things that will never make it into publications or statistics.. But they learn from all the others automotive maladies and problems.. Avoiding those same problems themselves!


  all RC

[RichardDarkwood]

I am glad you guys had the spacer discussion as I was debating them.






Todd