The M4 Firefly, a perfect tank...

[Angus]

The 17 pounder has equal or better armor penetration compared to the Tiger. The Panther gun, the 88 and the 17 pounder are basically in the same park, - elite.
But for armour, the Firefly is vulnerable. I die in it, and I kill them too, so I seem not to suffer from that perfection problem...

[RTHolmes]

the guns speed of traverse should be slowed

what is AHs firefly traverse in deg/sec? what was RL fireflys traverse in deg/sec? do you have any real basis for thinking it should be slowed?

AH firefly's frontal armour is better than the sides, as IRL.

As for skins, I agree, although theres no need to change the firefly. the default skin for all tanks should be suitable for the terrains we use, ie. as close as possible to each other.


the biggest problem with GVing is the terrain - inpenetrable leaves and the bug where a small shrub not only stops a 60 tonne tiger but will flip it over on its back. ridiculous. I like GVs but dont really bother often because the terrain problems mean you just cant take it seriously.

[Spikes]

The 17 pounder has equal or better armor penetration compared to the Tiger. The Panther gun, the 88 and the 17 pounder are basically in the same park, - elite.
But for armour, the Firefly is vulnerable. I die in it, and I kill them too, so I seem not to suffer from that perfection problem...

Tiger ain't far off. Before the Sherman the Tiger was feared in the old TT...now it's a hanger queen. No one ups one since it's so easily killed and a complete....COMPLETE waste of perks.

[Ack-Ack]

M4 is still very bad against Il2's and B25h's where as the Tiger is not Invincible...but Very hard to kill/damage with just bullets.

Tiger is just as vulnerable to the B-25H as the Firefly is.  It is quite easy to take out a Tiger in a single shot with the 75mm cannon, just need to know where to place the shot.


ack-ack

[BigKev03]

In response to this I agree in part but only because I wonder what round is modeled in the game that the Sherman fires as well as the turret armor?  The firefly was simply an upgunned standard M4.  That siad the only difference was the turret armor due to the change in turret design to house the 17lb gun.  If I remember correctly I think the max armor on the turret was 89mm and that was on the mantlet so on the turret sides is was thinner.  So with that said an 88mm shell should be able to penetrate the hull of a sherman well out to 2000 plus meters and penetrate the turret at rnage sof around 1500m.  In the game it does seem as if the sherman turret is super thick.  Of course I know a lot of variables make for a kill shot but at times it does seem much more than historical performance showed.  Now for the 17lb gun on it!  The 17lb gun fired two types of AP rounds.  It fired either armor piercing ballistic capped (APCBC) or a sabot type shot.  However, the sabot round was not available in large numbers.  So assuming the gun fires the APCBC round it should penetrate around 131mm of armour at 1000m.  In the game I have factored in the decrease in penetration for more distance to target and sat at range accordingly and still been killed by the firefly.  Example:  The 17lb gun could penetrate according to most data about 140mm of armor at 457m and around 131 at 914m.  So in my last gun fight in a tiger vs. an M4 I sat at 2200m or so from the M4 and still had my turret taken out.  I sat with frontal armor facing the target.  So with the above stats for calculated that the max penetration should have been no more than 113mm if I assumed a drop of 9mm of penetration for 500m of range increase.  The front turret armor of the tiger is 120mm thick.  So I shold be able to take multiple hit before a kill shot.  In my case one shot took me out.  So naturally I must assume that the AP round used is the Sabot ytpe round which has increased penetration???  Now at 2200m the tiger should be able to penetrate anywhere from 110mm to 83mm of armor.  I hit the M4 in the turret and the front hull with solid shots and nothing.  So with that said I am seeing that the tiger cannot penetrate even 51mm or front hull armor??????  So we can also address perks based on production numbers in WWII around 2000 fireflys were produced and around 1400 tigers produced.  So if we combine the production numbers, firepower of the 17lb gun with the sabot round, and the uber armor we see in the game then a perk of around 20 would be fair.  Please feel free to chop.  I know there are a lot of opinions but this is what I see and think is why we have the disparity.

BigKev

[Ack-Ack]

In response to this I agree in part but only because I wonder what round is modeled in the game that the Sherman fires as well as the turret armor?  The firefly was simply an upgunned standard M4.  That siad the only difference was the turret armor due to the change in turret design to house the 17lb gun.  If I remember correctly I think the max armor on the turret was 89mm and that was on the mantlet so on the turret sides is was thinner.  So with that said an 88mm shell should be able to penetrate the hull of a sherman well out to 2000 plus meters and penetrate the turret at rnage sof around 1500m.  In the game it does seem as if the sherman turret is super thick.  Of course I know a lot of variables make for a kill shot but at times it does seem much more than historical performance showed.  Now for the 17lb gun on it!  The 17lb gun fired two types of AP rounds.  It fired either armor piercing ballistic capped (APCBC) or a sabot type shot.  However, the sabot round was not available in large numbers.  So assuming the gun fires the APCBC round it should penetrate around 131mm of armour at 1000m.  In the game I have factored in the decrease in penetration for more distance to target and sat at range accordingly and still been killed by the firefly.  Example:  The 17lb gun could penetrate according to most data about 140mm of armor at 457m and around 131 at 914m.  So in my last gun fight in a tiger vs. an M4 I sat at 2200m or so from the M4 and still had my turret taken out.  I sat with frontal armor facing the target.  So with the above stats for calculated that the max penetration should have been no more than 113mm if I assumed a drop of 9mm of penetration for 500m of range increase.  The front turret armor of the tiger is 120mm thick.  So I shold be able to take multiple hit before a kill shot.  In my case one shot took me out.  So naturally I must assume that the AP round used is the Sabot ytpe round which has increased penetration???  Now at 2200m the tiger should be able to penetrate anywhere from 110mm to 83mm of armor.  I hit the M4 in the turret and the front hull with solid shots and nothing.  So with that said I am seeing that the tiger cannot penetrate even 51mm or front hull armor??????  So we can also address perks based on production numbers in WWII around 2000 fireflys were produced and around 1400 tigers produced.  So if we combine the production numbers, firepower of the 17lb gun with the sabot round, and the uber armor we see in the game then a perk of around 20 would be fair.  Please feel free to chop.  I know there are a lot of opinions but this is what I see and think is why we have the disparity.

BigKev

Awhile back moot posted about the Firefly and its ability to score kills beyond 3000+ yards.  In that thread there is a post that talks about the ranges for the different rounds the Firefly used.  In short, no matter what the rounds were, there is no way a Firefly could have scored a one kill shot on a Tiger or any other heavy German tank beyond 2500 yards like it's possible to do in game.

ack-ack

[Urchin]

I've got to imagine that at the really ridiculous ranges we see kills at in AH the round is arcing in and hitting the top armor.  There is probably a "sweet spot" for the Tiger at which the round is coming too flat to penetrate the top armor but doesn't have the velocity left to penetrate the front.

[Ack-Ack]

I've got to imagine that at the really ridiculous ranges we see kills at in AH the round is arcing in and hitting the top armor.  There is probably a "sweet spot" for the Tiger at which the round is coming too flat to penetrate the top armor but doesn't have the velocity left to penetrate the front.

The rounds from the Firefly though wouldn't have sufficient energy enough to score a one kill on a Tiger at some of the ranges we see in game (3000yds+).  In moot's thread I was referencing, he posted screenshots from a Firefly kill on a Tiger that was close to 4000 yards, almost double the effective range for either of the rounds the Firefly used.  In real life, the rounds wouldn't have sufficient energy to penetrate the armor of a Tiger or any other heavy German tank at that far of a range.


ack-ack

[RTHolmes]

In response to this I agree in part but only because I wonder what round is modeled in the game that the Sherman fires as well as the turret armor?  The firefly was simply an upgunned standard M4.  That siad the only difference was the turret armor due to the change in turret design to house the 17lb gun.  If I remember correctly I think the max armor on the turret was 89mm and that was on the mantlet so on the turret sides is was thinner.  So with that said an 88mm shell should be able to penetrate the hull of a sherman well out to 2000 plus meters and penetrate the turret at rnage sof around 1500m.  In the game it does seem as if the sherman turret is super thick.  Of course I know a lot of variables make for a kill shot but at times it does seem much more than historical performance showed.  Now for the 17lb gun on it!  The 17lb gun fired two types of AP rounds.  It fired either armor piercing ballistic capped (APCBC) or a sabot type shot.  However, the sabot round was not available in large numbers.  So assuming the gun fires the APCBC round it should penetrate around 131mm of armour at 1000m.  In the game I have factored in the decrease in penetration for more distance to target and sat at range accordingly and still been killed by the firefly.  Example:  The 17lb gun could penetrate according to most data about 140mm of armor at 457m and around 131 at 914m.  So in my last gun fight in a tiger vs. an M4 I sat at 2200m or so from the M4 and still had my turret taken out.  I sat with frontal armor facing the target.  So with the above stats for calculated that the max penetration should have been no more than 113mm if I assumed a drop of 9mm of penetration for 500m of range increase.  The front turret armor of the tiger is 120mm thick.  So I shold be able to take multiple hit before a kill shot.  In my case one shot took me out.  So naturally I must assume that the AP round used is the Sabot ytpe round which has increased penetration???  Now at 2200m the tiger should be able to penetrate anywhere from 110mm to 83mm of armor.  I hit the M4 in the turret and the front hull with solid shots and nothing.  So with that said I am seeing that the tiger cannot penetrate even 51mm or front hull armor??????  So we can also address perks based on production numbers in WWII around 2000 fireflys were produced and around 1400 tigers produced.  So if we combine the production numbers, firepower of the 17lb gun with the sabot round, and the uber armor we see in the game then a perk of around 20 would be fair.  Please feel free to chop.  I know there are a lot of opinions but this is what I see and think is why we have the disparity.

BigKev

cant be bothered to read that. pls use paragraphs

[stephen]

I have to make a correction, I didnt mean "within" 3000yds, I meant to say "Outside" of 3000yds.

I can deal with the lethality of the gun..., its a challenge to try and make the 1st few shots without the apposing M4 seeing me, what gets my goat is watching my 1st 2 rounds ping harmlessly off of the front of a Sherman, or seeing a damage splash on its SIDE where the ammo was housed, and having his first round blow me up.

Silly.

Perhaps crew casualtys should be modeld as well?

[JunkyII]

Speaking of the Firefly.....there is one at the entrance of my Brigade at Ft.Drum, its got a lighter skin on it

[lyric1]

Speaking of the Firefly.....there is one at the entrance of my Brigade at Ft.Drum, its got a lighter skin on it

Got a pick or link for it?

[WWhiskey]

i put over 40 rounds into a Sherman tonight at about 3500 distance, then another 12 into it at 2200 before it finally blew up i was in my tiger,,,, he took out my turret at 3500 in a panzer in one shot i had bounced at least 20 shots off him before that happened!
i don't mind the super Sherman tho, i just think the tiger costs to much and is too easily killed by the Sherman, the other thing i wish we had was a more friendly tank terrain  some holes to drive into, i know we cant "dig" in but we need to be able to. next problem i have found, and only recently is the ability to see thru stuff, someone i fought not long ago seemed to be able to see me no matter where i spawned and was shooting at me thru buildings almost immediately, i filmed it but have not sent it in yet, i figure it may be a glitch that will be fixed in the new update and no need to fix it before then, but i have been tanking a long time and this was just ridiculous, i was shot at thru barns and trees and houses, the rounds created holes all around me but did not kill me till i  moved up some, on at least two occasions i was hidden behind buildings when i spawned yet was getting shot at immediately .range was around 1500 to 2500 for these shots . i can see tanks moving on the other side of an object if they and i are within 500 but that's about it so i am not sure how someone else could see me  behind a building at 2000 or so.

[FireDrgn]

I talked with the gentleman that we had this discussion about before.  He said.  He can see Thru trees buildings  even Thru mountains sometimes.  He said he can't shoot thru them , but he can see the tank because it always shows up.  He says its his computer. 


I have been asking around.  It seems if you turn town your graphics and detail.  and YOu must hit ground vis  its like shift or cntl f4  you can see thru most trees.

It seems more prevalent now than it was before ..to counter I just drive out and range them from past 3.2.  their are only an hand full of gvers in the game that can effectively trade shots past that distance.

<S>

[Karnak]

Why does the Tiger I have a positive K/D ratio against the Firefly if it is as indestructible as you all claim?