Author Topic: The priorities of air combat  (Read 1516 times)

Offline FiLtH

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The priorities of air combat
« on: February 19, 2010, 12:38:09 PM »
  I was thinking the other night about what I think of, and give priority to during a fight. Pretty much this is the order of priority to each area I give when fighting, starting with highest to lowest priority.

1. Position:  To me, whether I have alt advantage of not doesnt matter much, as I usually dive in and mix it up, throwing away the advantage from the get-go. But on some nights, I feel like using it, so Id have to say maintaining that alt advantage would be a high priority in the position dept., and general SA as for how many enemies are about.

    But the main part of the position Im talking about, is once in a dogfight, the position of your plane, attitude, direction your nose is pointing,speed, in relation to the enemy, and knowing what the enemy can do at that moment, and knowing what you can do in relation to his options. Slightly defensive style, but it works for me.

2. Throttle control: Knowing when to chop throttle, vertically or horizontally, such as when in scissors, or when forcing an overshoot using throttle with flaps,rudder,and kitchen sink to slow down.


3. Flaps: Knowing when to use them, how much to use, and how many notches you have to work with.(Sucks thinking you have 1 more only to find out you are full flap and slower than you wanted when you went nose up at a critical moment.

4. Gunnery: Many would claim you have to be a great shot above all else. Maybe if you hit and run this is so, but for many who just mix it up, the other listed priorities make gunnery moot. If you win the fight for the 6, you can be a mediocre shot and still win.

    Overall, knowing what your plane can do, what the enemy can do, and his options, allowing you to think like a chessgame and start countering his next move before he even thinks of doing it, and you will have a much better chance of winning the fight.

   Thats me of course, Im sure others have differing priorities.  Did I say priorities enough? Priorities..there :)
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 12:39:47 PM by FiLtH »

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Offline TnDep

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Re: The priorities of air combat
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2010, 01:13:47 PM »
 I was thinking the other night about what I think of, and give priority to during a fight. Pretty much this is the order of priority to each area I give when fighting, starting with highest to lowest priority.

1. Position:  To me, whether I have alt advantage of not doesnt matter much, as I usually dive in and mix it up, throwing away the advantage from the get-go. But on some nights, I feel like using it, so Id have to say maintaining that alt advantage would be a high priority in the position dept., and general SA as for how many enemies are about.

    But the main part of the position Im talking about, is once in a dogfight, the position of your plane, attitude, direction your nose is pointing,speed, in relation to the enemy, and knowing what the enemy can do at that moment, and knowing what you can do in relation to his options. Slightly defensive style, but it works for me.

2. Throttle control: Knowing when to chop throttle, vertically or horizontally, such as when in scissors, or when forcing an overshoot using throttle with flaps,rudder,and kitchen sink to slow down.


3. Flaps: Knowing when to use them, how much to use, and how many notches you have to work with.(Sucks thinking you have 1 more only to find out you are full flap and slower than you wanted when you went nose up at a critical moment.

4. Gunnery: Many would claim you have to be a great shot above all else. Maybe if you hit and run this is so, but for many who just mix it up, the other listed priorities make gunnery moot. If you win the fight for the 6, you can be a mediocre shot and still win.

    Overall, knowing what your plane can do, what the enemy can do, and his options, allowing you to think like a chessgame and start countering his next move before he even thinks of doing it, and you will have a much better chance of winning the fight.

   Thats me of course, Im sure others have differing priorities.  Did I say priorities enough? Priorities..there :)


Nice write up Filth I enjoyed the read

I'd say those are pretty close to the same priorities I have and in that order except I always say knowing when to pull harder on the stick and when not to is also very important. 

Not blowing your E on the first or second immelman to allow for a hi yo yo for the third.  And I agree it is similiar to chess and I guess that's why I love a good fight with a great stick.  Also very very important is knowing when to pull your flaps back in after there use is done.  Sometimes a fight won or lost maybe a 10+mph advantage in the end, so after 3 or 4 turns you conserve alittle more E your good as gold. 

Gunnery:  I wish I was better lol I'm all over the average department in that category.  I believe it is very important to put the enemy your fighting down so you can go to the next.  I've been shot down more then any other reason because I couldn't get the bogie down I was working on.  I've won one 4v1 in the past but theres so many more I could have given them a run for the money in if I could shoot. 

 :salute
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Offline APDrone

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Re: The priorities of air combat
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2010, 01:39:50 PM »
 

1. Position:  To me, whether I have alt advantage of not doesnt matter much, as I usually dive in and mix it up, throwing away the advantage from the get-go.
....


He speaks truth.  Funny, I always thought it was MGD instigating the mass loss of alt.  I see it for the conspiracy between them it is.
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Offline ink

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Re: The priorities of air combat
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2010, 01:41:44 PM »
 I was thinking the other night about what I think of, and give priority to during a fight. Pretty much this is the order of priority to each area I give when fighting, starting with highest to lowest priority.

1. Position:  To me, whether I have alt advantage of not doesnt matter much, as I usually dive in and mix it up, throwing away the advantage from the get-go. But on some nights, I feel like using it, so Id have to say maintaining that alt advantage would be a high priority in the position dept., and general SA as for how many enemies are about.

    But the main part of the position Im talking about, is once in a dogfight, the position of your plane, attitude, direction your nose is pointing,speed, in relation to the enemy, and knowing what the enemy can do at that moment, and knowing what you can do in relation to his options. Slightly defensive style, but it works for me.

2. Throttle control: Knowing when to chop throttle, vertically or horizontally, such as when in scissors, or when forcing an overshoot using throttle with flaps,rudder,and kitchen sink to slow down.


3. Flaps: Knowing when to use them, how much to use, and how many notches you have to work with.(Sucks thinking you have 1 more only to find out you are full flap and slower than you wanted when you went nose up at a critical moment.

4. Gunnery: Many would claim you have to be a great shot above all else. Maybe if you hit and run this is so, but for many who just mix it up, the other listed priorities make gunnery moot. If you win the fight for the 6, you can be a mediocre shot and still win.

    Overall, knowing what your plane can do, what the enemy can do, and his options, allowing you to think like a chessgame and start countering his next move before he even thinks of doing it, and you will have a much better chance of winning the fight.

   Thats me of course, Im sure others have differing priorities.  Did I say priorities enough? Priorities..there :)


I agree with everything you say, except about the gunnery, that is the most important aspect of all.

"the better shot will almost always win out over the better pilot."
quoted from a WW2 ace....who? I have no idea cant remember...anybody know?

Offline AWwrgwy

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Re: The priorities of air combat
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2010, 01:55:24 PM »
I agree with everything you say, except about the gunnery, that is the most important aspect of all.

"the better shot will almost always win out over the better pilot."
quoted from a WW2 ace....who? I have no idea cant remember...anybody know?

It was probably something someone told Eric Hartmann, who, IIRC was a terrible shot, hence his need to get really, really close.

Good writeup FiLtH



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Offline Guppy35

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Re: The priorities of air combat
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2010, 02:25:18 PM »
I can't shoot, like to be below the fight and make em come down, and fly a big twin engined target.  How is it I'm still having fun? :)
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Offline JunkyII

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Re: The priorities of air combat
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2010, 02:29:46 PM »
I agree with everything you say, except about the gunnery, that is the most important aspect of all.

"the better shot will almost always win out over the better pilot."
quoted from a WW2 ace....who? I have no idea cant remember...anybody know?
I agree, if your good with SA and are a good shot you can score high in Fighter rank....but that doesnt mean your a better pilot in a knife fight because then everything comes into play :salute
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Offline Redd

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Re: The priorities of air combat
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2010, 03:05:11 PM »


Kind of agree , but in a typical 1-1 engagement it's really all about position , point 2 and 3 are really just mechanisms to achieve position which you don't really think about , and you dont really think about gunnery - you either have it or you don't.

If I'm engaged with someone I'm really only thinking about position , and where the next threat is coming from  ie am I about to be getting jumped by 5 ib cons.



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Offline Lepape2

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Re: The priorities of air combat
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2010, 03:07:18 PM »
   Overall, knowing what your plane can do, what the enemy can do, and his options, allowing you to think like a chessgame and start countering his next move before he even thinks of doing it, and you will have a much better chance of winning the fight.

I find this list more like a checklist rather than a mindset. If I may, I will give more details concerning your last line because this is the most important part of dogfighting.

All points are in logical order but they don't tell what the "knowing" part is. For starters, all of it seems obvious but when it comes to do it in combat, they have no idea how apply them instinctively. I understand it is good to separate a dogfight in multiple segments you can practice on and manage priorities, but they are useless if you think of them separately in action.
Let me explain.

Position, throttle control, flaps, gunnery; all of which are dependent of one another and cannot be effective if they are not used together with equal measure. For example, if you can't coordinate flaps and throttle control at the same time to allow yourself to be in a perfect position for a comfortable gun solution (gunnery), you will have trouble winning the fight. Actually, the 4 priorities are fine, but they can be used in different combinations depending on the situation; preferably a situation you integrated in the fight yourself rather than your opponent.

In order to do that, you need to think in advance not only with one plan(A) -slow-, but with two plans(A+B) -slow+fast-. The first plan(A) consists of making the same move that your opponent does to make him co-E to you. The problem with this plan is that you have 1/2 chance of it failing because you have to make that move first and without hesitation at all (ex: burn E very quickly (full flaps, throttle down, pull max Gs)... or extend for an E fight). It takes 2 to 3 seconds to know if your plan will fail or not(the sooner the better), but you need eyes on your opponent at this point (even if you are blacking out). If you chose Plan A (burn E) and he extends in a 2/5 loop (in standard merge), immediately give up Plan A and start Plan B, otherwise its like giving up your queen too early in a chess game. Plan B consist of countering your opponent defensive move as fast as possible (scissors gets crushed by rock). Start Plan B: bring flaps up, stop pulling Gs, full WEP and extend until he can reverse. Try to match E as fast as possible and turn back slowly and think of starting plan A again.

To force him to go Plan A (slow turnfight) too late with you, set yourself up as a target he need to pull hard Gs to hit. Since you started Plan B early, you have enough speed to do a simple gun defence when he makes a pass on you (the fact he concentrates on aiming at you gives up his positional awareness). Basically, its a trap. If the trap doesn't work (he still does not want to turn with you), revert back to Plan B again. A smart E Fighting opponent will keep his E up if you have been slow only once after the merge. But, eventually, you will reach the deck and passes on you will be harder to be effective without augering. Hence, he will be forced to slow down(no alt left) and you will be forced to be faster(gun defence), slowly having both plans (A+B) merge together. This is where it become dangerous for you if you chose to start with plan A (slow merge) because there is a slightly unavoidable SLOW speed transition between both aircrafts once on the deck VS a smart one. It is this slow transition that kills you since you are slowly becoming Co-E. Only way to counter this is to skillfully (<--this is the hard part) grab E when you can (use as less flaps as possible and use WEP if you have some left) and surprise your opponent when he tries to rope you.

As soon as he tries to turn with you, you win because he will overshoot and you are still dictating the fight, even though in your opponent view, it doesn't look like it. Setting yourself up as a target makes the other think you are weak and is now more prone to make mistakes as he is more confident he will kill you.

The same way of thinking works if you start with Plan B(fast merge), but remember if you want to slow down and switch to Plan A (if your opponent is smart and plays co-e in an E fight), do it with 99% certitude you won't have overshot when you reach minimum stall speed with him (you can't slow down more, he can't slow down more, but he has you in his gunsight... you are ded  :( ).

When the 4 priorities you mentioned become second nature and you don't even think about it, its all about choosing which plan to start with and which chess piece to give up first to gain the decisional advantage. You gain the upper hand by being really faster, or really slower, but not in between (your are a sitting target that doesn't "know" what to do and only reacts defensively). Of course you need to be a good shot, manage throttle/flaps, and have a good starting position, but they are part of a larger entity.

Its all about what happens in your head, not what ACM book your read (to a certain extent). That's what I like about dogfighting - or any competition for that matter.

I'm sorry if i'm am not very clear, it is the first time I post something with as much certitude as this and I'm afraid there are a lot of people here that know much more than I do. So, correct me if I'm wrong.

Ok, I'm done... :bolt:
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 03:19:00 PM by Lepape2 »
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Offline Ruah

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Re: The priorities of air combat
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2010, 03:46:35 PM »
While I agree with the analysis - compairing dogfighting to chess is not something that sits well.  For starters, in chessthere are only 2 opponents, in chess you see everything on the board infronto of you, in chess there is the attacker (white) who starts with a tempo advantage and should, based on that, win everytime and on and on.  Chess is a small peaceful world that the white player decidess to throw into war (the chess board, before the first move, is perfect, peaceful).  Dogfighting is much less synthetic and a lot more intuitive.  By practising, I find I am not so much learning stratagy but rather a set of intuitions - in chess if you relied on intuition even once, you will lose to an equal player. . .

anyway - I think the first thing in combat is SA, if you can't see them, then you can't beat them.  And its suprisingly hard to get SA right.

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Offline FiLtH

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Re: The priorities of air combat
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2010, 03:57:22 PM »
   I wish my gunnery was better, killing the guy with the first try would certainly improve my chances before the 2nd and third guy reach me. But I still stand on the gunnery is least important for if he cant get his guns on you, it doesnt matter.


    The "instinct" bit is spot on, but like you said, you cant teach it. Instinct and your reaction time are key. But some have it some dont, and when you have to great sticks fight, the loser probably reacted a bit slower than he should have, or his instinct steared him wrong that time. Those that dont have those quick instincts, will probably never be "great" in here, but they can still enjoy the game fighting and winning over on par opponents and lesser.


   Lastly, the comparision to chess for for the fights..rare fights you get 1v1 in the wilderness, where there are no friends to bail you out of a jam. Then again..we are using chess pieces :P


And Drone..yes..MGD is worse than me at the altitude thing lol

  

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Offline shreck

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Re: The priorities of air combat
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2010, 06:13:01 PM »
Gunnery is far more important if you're flying a plane that is NOT an 'ENERGY" factory. The longer the fight lasts the fewer opportunities you get in a less UBER ride! You must make the shots "stick"  :aok

Offline DREDIOCK

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Re: The priorities of air combat
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2010, 08:02:06 PM »
Rule 1

Determine the threat level and deal with the greatest threat first.

Then apply rules already described
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Offline ink

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Re: The priorities of air combat
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2010, 12:43:43 AM »
Rule 1

Determine the threat level and deal with the greatest threat first.

Then apply rules already described

that is part of SA

Offline uptown

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Re: The priorities of air combat
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2010, 04:50:52 PM »
I perfer to shut me eyes and dive into the furball with guns blazing!  :joystick: :airplane: :banana:
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