Author Topic: Late-War Match-ups (warning: inflammatory material!)  (Read 1564 times)

Offline SnakeEyes

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Late-War Match-ups (warning: inflammatory material!)
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2000, 04:14:00 PM »
I don't want any late war aircraft either...

In addition to Karnak's list I'd like to see:

Fokker Dva
Sopwith Camel
Fokker Triplane
Rumpler C1
Se5a
Sopwith Snipe
Neiuport 17

 


------------------
SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

Offline jmccaul

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Late-War Match-ups (warning: inflammatory material!)
« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2000, 04:33:00 PM »
Join the bring the Se5a to AH campeign now !!!!!!

Offline Vermillion

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4012
Late-War Match-ups (warning: inflammatory material!)
« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2000, 05:28:00 PM »
Hristos, see my post on the the production of the Ta-152.  

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/003476.html

The Short Version:

There were 25 prototype 152's (A's, B's, C's, and H's) and 45 production 152's (two C's, and 43 H's).

Of these only 25 total made it too active service with the Luftwaffe.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 05-24-2000).]

Nath-BDP

  • Guest
Late-War Match-ups (warning: inflammatory material!)
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2000, 05:45:00 PM »
Plus almost all Ta-152's, were the H0 (zero) model, not the H1. The H0 did not have either MW50 or GM1 boost systems, due too production problems and availability. But otherwise was similar to the H1.

Actually, Vermillion, roughly 150 Ta 152H's were build only 46 of them being H0's, 26 being built at Sarau and the other 20 at Cottbus, all fighter-varients of the H0 were equipped with MW 50, out of all the night fighter variants, all-weather fighter variants, the only H0 model that didn't have some sort of power-boost system was the H0/R21, which lacked a GM1 system. (R standing for Rustsatze or Umrust-Bausatze, field and factory conversion sets respectively).  The H1 and H0 were basically the same except for an enlarged fuel capacity in the H1.

Offline Vermillion

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4012
Late-War Match-ups (warning: inflammatory material!)
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2000, 05:59:00 PM »
Nath, not sure where you information came from but this guy documents each and every aircraft down to its exact werk number, and any known combat history. And the info I posted in the full post came from the book.

I will let you and him argue it out.  

But all his sources are original Luftwaffe documents, and the bibliography is quite large.

He does document that at several plants quite a few aircraft were found in various stages of construction, so maybe the numbers your source is quoting counts in those aircraft. *shrugs*

If your really interested I can post the lists of all the aircraft produced, their prototype designations, or the werk numbers of the production aircraft, and see where our information matches.

The book I am refering too is by far the most indepth examination of the Ta-152 I have seen. Until I see some better source, I will personally believe the information from this source.



------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

Offline RAM

  • Parolee
  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 38
Late-War Match-ups (warning: inflammatory material!)
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2000, 06:10:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Vermillion:
If your really interested I can post the lists of all the aircraft produced, their prototype designations, or the werk numbers of the production aircraft, and see where our information matches.

I dont know if he wants that info but I am mighty interested. I'd be thankfull if you'd send it to me.

ebringas@airtel.net

Thanks in advance  

Offline Vermillion

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4012
Late-War Match-ups (warning: inflammatory material!)
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2000, 06:33:00 PM »
Just went back thru the book to check your numbers Nath.

According to this source.

The two (2) production 152C's were produced at Erfurt-North. These were originally planed as unarmed E reconaisance aircraft, but were picked up by JG301, and armed and used in combat as C models. On 15 April '45 when the American's overan the facility, they found  two flyable Ta152's, one burnt out Ta152, and a further 40 Ta152 partially completed fuselages.

The 43 production 152H's were produced at Cottbus.

On the issue of 152's built at Sorau/Adelheide.

While there was a planned prototype program for an initial  total of 26 test beds, most of these were canceled or never completed. These were designated  V1 thru V28.

V1-V5 were not built (5 total)
V6 was a 152C-0 prototype
V7 was a C-0/R11 prototype
V8 was a C-0/EZ prototype
V9-V12 were canceled (4 total)
V13 was a E-1 prototype
V14 was canceled
V15 was a C-2 prototype
V16-V17 were C-3 prototypes planned to fly in March 45
V18 was canceled
V19-V21 were C-5 prototypes , reordered as B-5's, planned to fly in April-March 45,
V22-V25 were canceled
V26 was a H-10, but reordered as a H0, never completed
V27-V28 were converted H0's for testing Mk103 cannons for C-3 series.

The production plans for the Ta152 C prototypes could also not be held too, on account of the war situation, and it is questionable whether more than three new-build prototypes of the Ta 152 C-0 (V6, V7,V8) and one converted aircraft (Ta152 V27 or V28) were ever built and flown.

That last paragraph was a direct quote.



------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

Offline Vermillion

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4012
Late-War Match-ups (warning: inflammatory material!)
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2000, 07:01:00 PM »
If I can get access to a scanner I will try to post the two page listing of all the production aircraft from Cottbus, which includes whatever history is available on each.

However, as much of a 190 fan as you are, I would highly suggest purchasing the book.  

Since it includes quite a bit of history, technical information on the aircraft, and flight testing data as well.

Its only $24 US on Barnes&Noble online, and ships immediately, plus there are a couple of reviews of it there. ISBN #: 0-7643-0860-2

I highly reccommend it.  

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

Offline Sundog

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1781
Late-War Match-ups (warning: inflammatory material!)
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2000, 08:21:00 PM »
The comments I made about the Doras turning ability were the comments in a book about Kurt Tank, the designer of the Fw-190. So, we can assume they are somewhat biased. I will look through the book for hard numbers on turn rate vs altitude of the Dora based on flight testing.

Update: Found wing loading(S/W)numbers and power loading (W/P) numbers

Dora-9: S/W=233.33 kg/m^2   W/P=3.38 kg/kw
190A-8: S/W=237.70 kg/m^2   W/P=3.42 kg/kw
190A-6: S/W=224.43 kg/m^2   W/P=3.23 kg/kw
P-38F: S/W=237.31 kg/m^2    W/P=3.71 kg/kw
P-51A: S/W=184.36 kg/m^2    W/P=4.23 kg/kw
Spit 9 LF: S/W=158.52 kg/m^2  W/P=2.81 kg/kw

Based on these numbers (All from `Kurt Tank: Focke-Wulf's designer and test pilot' by Wolfgang Wagner (ISBN # 0-7643-0644-8)) I don't know why they state that the Dora had `good' turning ability, as the wingloading numbers clearly do not bear this out in their very own book! Thanks for the heads up Jochen.

   



[This message has been edited by Sundog (edited 05-24-2000).]

funked

  • Guest
Late-War Match-ups (warning: inflammatory material!)
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2000, 09:57:00 PM »
OK Hristo we were both wrong, let's hunt Vermillion in the arena now.  

Offline RAM

  • Parolee
  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 38
Late-War Match-ups (warning: inflammatory material!)
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2000, 10:49:00 PM »
[edit]Uh-oh...Stupid me I still dont know how to read technical numbers (it seems)

LOL foolish me! I was reading the powerloading just the wrong way!!!

well it was 6 a m for me, you know my brain doesnt work very well at normal hours, so at 6 am...

Time for my pills  

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-25-2000).]

Offline RAM

  • Parolee
  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 38
Late-War Match-ups (warning: inflammatory material!)
« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2000, 10:57:00 PM »
and the stupid that readed wrong the numbers did a double post!!!

my god I was really asleep  

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-25-2000).]

Offline juzz

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 193
      • http://nope.haha.com
Late-War Match-ups (warning: inflammatory material!)
« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2000, 11:29:00 PM »
RAM, you're interpreting the data totally wrong. The units are Kilograms per Kilowatt. A low number is good.


Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23048
Late-War Match-ups (warning: inflammatory material!)
« Reply #43 on: May 25, 2000, 01:43:00 AM »
Kieren, this is why we RAF types have little compunction about invading other threads.  Every bloody thread discussing late war aircraft (in this case all late war aircraft) seems to become a discussion about German aircraft, Fw this, Bf that, Me here and Ta there.  YES the Germans built some VERY good fighters, but why does 75% of this board have to be about them?

Sisu
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline LLv34_Camouflage

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2189
      • http://www.virtualpilots.fi/LLv34
Late-War Match-ups (warning: inflammatory material!)
« Reply #44 on: May 25, 2000, 03:26:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak:
Some other, not so late war aircraft I'd like to see:

Brewster Buffalo (In Finnish colors)


I agree!

Camo



------------------
Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
 www.muodos.fi/LLv34

Brewster into AH!

"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
CO, Lentolaivue 34
Brewster's in AH!
"How about the power to kill a Yak from 200 yards away - with mind bullets!"