Author Topic: Late-War Match-ups (warning: inflammatory material!)  (Read 1562 times)

Offline Kieren

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Late-War Match-ups (warning: inflammatory material!)
« on: May 23, 2000, 02:15:00 PM »
Ok, let's get it out in the open!

What a/c matches up with the following a/c?

FW190D-9
Spitfire XIV
Ta-152
Ki-84
La-7
P47M
P51H
Me262
Fiat G55
Mosquito (later Mk's)
Gloster Meteor
A26 Invader
Ar234
B29

and the immediate post-war:

P80
F8F
Spitfire Mk22
La9
Meteor

Let 'er rip, let's get it over with once and for all!    

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[This message has been edited by Kieren (edited 05-23-2000).]

Offline --my--

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Late-War Match-ups (warning: inflammatory material!)
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2000, 03:00:00 PM »
Brewster Buffalo vs MI-8  

 

--my--

Offline Vermillion

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« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2000, 03:20:00 PM »
My opinon only:

Aircraft that would fit in arena:

FW190D-9 (fast, but not fastest, turns like a truck, average to low climb)
Ki-84 (great TnB aircraft, very slow in our arena)
La-7 (very good low alt aircraft, but suffers badly above 15k, like current La5)
P47M (very fast, but turns like a brick)
Mosquito (later Mk's)
A26 Invader

Aircraft that would IMO unbalance things:
Spitfire XIV (perfect arena fighter)
Ta-152 (actually wouldn't unbalance arena, but it gives impression it would)
Ar234 (an untouchable bomber)
B29 (If you hate B17's, this will cause nightmares, better bring x4 Hispano's)
P80 (jet enough said)
F8F (an almost perfect arena fighter, but its blue)
Spitfire Mk22 (perfect arena fighter on steriods)
Meteor (jet enough said)
P51H (too damn fast at 480mph)
Me262 (jet enough said)

Don't know enough about it to form an opinon:
Fiat G55



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Vermillion
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Offline Karnak

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Late-War Match-ups (warning: inflammatory material!)
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2000, 03:42:00 PM »
FW190D-9
Spitfire MkXIV
Ki-84 (peice of junk according to Saburo Sakai)
La-7
P47M
Me262
Fiat G55
Mosquito (later Mk's)
Gloster Meteor MkIV
A26 Invader
Ar234
B29
Ta152
Spitfire F.21
Hawker Tempest
J3M2 Raiden "Jack"
Avro Lincoln
He177/He277

and the immediate post-war:

P80
F8F
Spitfire Mk22/24
Seafire Mk48
La9
Meteor
J7W1 Shinden
A7M3 Reppu "Sam"
Kikka
Hawker Fury
Do335
B-36
"Rita" (Japanese 4 engined, heavy land-based bomber.  Much like the B-17, but with 20mm cannons)

Those are a few.  If I had my books with me I could name many more.

Sisu
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline gatt

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« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2000, 04:23:00 PM »
 
Quote
Don't know enough about it to form an opinon:
Fiat G55
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Vermillion

The G.55 is not a late war monster, is a decent 1943-44 fighter, like the C.205V.
The G.56 however, engined with the mighty DB603 (1,750hp) would be a serious contender with late war allied fiters. Only a few models were built, tho.
Max speed was 685Km/h at 7,000mt. Time to 7,000mt was 7"5". Armament was 3x20mm Mausers MG151-20 or 2x20mm and 1x30mm.

"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2000, 05:02:00 PM »
Nobody's mentioned the Tempest.

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2000, 05:23:00 PM »
Nashwan, I did.

Sisu
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             As she remembers me-

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2000, 05:35:00 PM »
What I really think we need is the B-36 Peacemaker.  Designed for WWII, but too late to see action (by more than a year (years?)).

Convair B-36 Peacemaker
Wingspan:  230 feet
Length:  162 feet
Wing Area:  4770 square feet
Maximum Take-off Weight:  410,000 pounds
Maximum Bomb Payload:  2x 48,000 pound Grand Slam bombs
Powerplant:  6x 3500 hp R4360 radial engines, 4X 5,200 pound J47-GE-19 turbojets
Defensive Guns:  12 20mm cannons
Maximum Speed:  411 Mph

 

 

Sisu
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Sundog

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« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2000, 08:23:00 PM »
FW190D-9 (Based on what I have read, it could out turn almost every allied fighter in the ETO. The exception was probably the Spit and maybe the P-38. All historical accounts I have read show it holding its own with the P-51 in all respects.)

Spitfire XIV - Don't know any equal to this bird in terms of pure fighting ability (Angles and E...guess you had to try and run 'em out of gas before they caught you..high aileron forces at high speeds though).

Ta-152 Perhaps a `long spanned' (LF?) Spit?

Ki-84 P-47M possibly, depending on alt.

La-7 Leonids call...I dont know much history on this other then  the Soviet World War Two fighters Volume 1

P47M - Ki-84...see above

P51H - not that familiar with the H (Lightweight D?...perhaps the Dora or Ta-152)

Me262 - Had no contemporary at the time. Based on what I have read it had much better handling characteristics then the early meteors.

Fiat G55 - P-51? The G-55 only had 385mph @ 23k ft, but could probably out turn a 51 (Info from William Greens Fighters of WW2, Vol 2...How about the Piaggio P119 with the radial engine in the center of the fuselage (similar to P-39 layout) which could do 400mph at 22,300 ft.

Mosquito (later Mk's) Ju-388
 
Gloster Meteor - Me-262...maybe..see above.

A26 Invader Me-410+Ju-388=A-26    

Ar234 - Can't touch this (except maybe a 51 ina dive..otherwise, brits need the canberra)

B29 - The Me-264

and the immediate post-war:

Leaving the last ones alone..would have to speculate on what Germany would have built, based on what shape we want to assume GE was in. Or do you mean Soviet contemporaries?

P80
F8F
Spitfire Mk22
La9
Meteor

     


[This message has been edited by Sundog (edited 05-23-2000).]

Offline Kieren

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« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2000, 09:41:00 PM »
Really, this is interesting to me because many of the planes listed would have to be considered on or on the edge of the "uber" list. One must assume such planes would be entered in pairs (though there is no way to know what is planned) to help historical balance (Allied/Axis). So again, and specifically, how might you compare each a/c on the list with its direct arena rival?

[This message has been edited by Kieren (edited 05-23-2000).]

Offline indian

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« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2000, 11:59:00 PM »
I believe from reading the post of Pyros that the uber planes will be for the main arena only not any other arena. So planes like those listed above would be in the maon arena probably in pairs.

Anyone want a B19 it actually flew in the combat area. Only one of them though and I want it for my self.

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Sorrow[S=A]

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Late-War Match-ups (warning: inflammatory material!)
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2000, 12:38:00 AM »
la-7=P51D or 109G10 under 8,000 ft.
It's not really uber, it's just an La-5FN
with all the drag cleaned up so it moves faster and bleeds less E in vertical fighting. Also Visibility improved by shifting oil coolers out from in front of canopy. Oh, it does have an extra cannon too.
Over 8,000 ft it's much less competetive. It does however move slightly over 400 mph TAS instead of the 390 TAS the La-5FN can do.

Offline Jochen

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Late-War Match-ups (warning: inflammatory material!)
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2000, 01:16:00 AM »
 
Quote
FW190D-9 (Based on what I have read, it could out turn almost every allied fighter in the ETO. The exception was probably the Spit and maybe the P-38. All historical accounts I have read show it holding its own with the P-51 in all respects.)

Not bloody likely! D-9 is poor turning plane.

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jochen Geschwaderkommodore (on leave) Jagdgeschwader 2 'Richthofen'  Warbirds

Thanks for the Fw 190A-5 HTC!

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Burn your briefs you leave for France tonight
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Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87D, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.

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« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2000, 01:33:00 AM »
You think the Ta 152 wouldn't unbalance the arena, Verm? Take a look at this...

   'The flying characteristics of the Ta 152 put all previous German fighters completely in the shade.  Althought I never flew the Me 262 jet, I would venture to suggest that the Ta 152 was by far superior when it came to dogfighting with the Allied fighters then in service.'

   'The 2500 HP engine gave the Ta 152 a top speed of some 750kph. The three-bladed airscrew - each blade being 60 cm wide - meant the Ta 152 could life off in just 400 metres. The marked increase in span gave the aircraft a very tight turning ciecle and a fantasic climb capability - 15 metres a second and a ceiling of 14,000 metres. In my opinion there was no better fighter in operational service at the time.' - a pilot of Erpobungskommando 152, (the operational test unit for the Ta 152, late 44, the pilot is most likely Hauptmann Bruno Stolle, who had since commanded both III./JG 2 and I./JG 11)

Now onto a combat report by the only Ta 152 equipped squadron, JG 301.  Pilot, Oberfeldwebel Willi Reshke, 3 kills in Ta 152 before war's end...

'At the beginning of April 1945 JG 301 based at Hagenow, Ludwigslust and Neustadt-Glewe. The latter housed both II./JG 301 and the Ta 152H-1s of the Stabsschwarm. During the afternoon of 14 April 1945 the Geshwader had flown a mission over the Eastern Front, a low-level attack on Russian positions along the Oder south-east of Berlin.
   'The Stabsscharm's job was to provide fighter cover during the Fw 190's approach and strafing runs, but as there wasn't a Russian fighter to be seen far and wide, The Ta-pilots returned to Neustadt-Glewe without firing a shot. The aircraft were immediatley refuelled, taxied to their dispersals and camouflaged. The pilots were still busy attending to their machines when two enemy fighters were spotted some eight kilometres to the south-west of the field making low-level passed over ludwigslust rail-way yards.
   'Three Ta 152s were ordered to scramble at once - pilots Oberstleutnant Aufhammer, Oberfeldwebel Sattler and Oberfeldwebel Reshke.
   'As the direction of take-off was in the line with the railway tracks leading straight to Ludwigslust, we were almost immediately in contact with the enemy fighters, which turned out to be Tempests. Flying No 3 position I witnessed Oberfeldwebel Sattler ahead of my dive into the ground seconds before we reached them. It was hardly possible for his crash to be the result of enemy action, as the two Tempest pilots had clearly only registered our presence.
   'So now it was two against two as the ground-level dogfight began. We knew the Tempest to be a very fast fighter, used by the British to chase and shoot down out V-1's (which it shot down 638 of the 1,717 launched against Britain). But here, in a fight which was never to climb above 50 metres, speed would not play a big part. The machines' ability to turn would be all important. Both pilots realised from the start that it would be a fight to the finish and used every flying trick and tactical ploy possible to try and gain the upper hand. At this altitude neither could afford to make the slightest mistake. And for the first time since flying the Ta 152 I began fully to appreciate exactly what this aircraft could do.
   'Pulling ever tighter turns I got closer and closer to the Tempest, never once feeling I was even approaching the limit of the Ta's capabilities. And in order to keep out of my sights, the Tempest pilot of being forced to take increasingly dangerous evasive action. When he flicked over onto the opposite wing I knew his last attempt to turn inside me had failed.
   'The first burst of fire from my Ta 152 caught the Tempest in the tail and rear fuselage. The enemy aircraft shuddered noticeably and, probably as an instinctive action, the Tempest pilot immediately yoked into a starboard turn, giving me an even greater advantage.
   'Now there was no escape for the Tempest. I pressed my gun buttons a second time, but after a few rounds my weapons fell silent, and despite all my efforts to clear them, refused to fire another shot. I can no longer remember just who and what I didn't curse. But fortunately for the Tempest pilot didnt realise my predicament as he'd already taken hits.
   'Instead he continued desperatly to twist and turn and I positioned myself so that I was always just within his field of vision. Eventually - inevitably - he stalled. The Tempest's left wing dropped and he crashed into the woods immediately below us.
   'It so happened that the site of Oberfeldwebel Sattler's crash, and that of the Tempest pilot, who proved to be New Zealander Wt Off O J Mitchell, were only about one kilometre apart. They were buried side-by-side in Neustadt-Glewe cemetary next day with full military honors.'

The Ta, slightly put, 0wned.

Offline Hristo

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« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2000, 01:37:00 AM »
Outmaneuvering and outturning are different categories.

While Dora could outmaneuver almost all planes at high speeds and dives, there were very few planes Dora could outturn at sustained turn speed.

P 51D might just be one of those planes, regarding Dora's superior power loading. But then again, lower drag of P 51 and lower wingloading might negate this.

An interesting matchup though.