The SPAD, the 51 of its era...

[Simba]

"I've read accounts of ww1 pilots exploring alttitudes above 12'000ft, how was this possible in the times before oxygen bottles?!"

I recommend you read James McCudden's 'Five Years in the Royal Flying Corps' - he maintained his own aircraft and engine, and managed to fly his SE5a to over 20,000 feet. He suffered from dreadful headaches - but he caused even more pain to the Huns he intercepted way up there.

The normal duration of a fighter sortie in the Great War was 2-3 hours and a fair part of each was spent below the altitude where oxygen becomes necessary to sustain life. Two-seaters spotting for the artillery rarely flew higher than 8,000 feet, photo-recce the same, unless there was a call for a 'special', when the pics would be taken from a greater height. When the air war developed into longer sorties and greater altitudes, it was discovered that many pilots couldn't fly for long over 8,000 feet without suffering discomfort and dizziness, and 10-12,000 feet was enough for most. It was only exceptionally fit young men who could endure the lack of oxygen at altitude and still fight effectively.

Ever wondered why the 'Huntley and Palmer' twin-Lewis guns arrangement for the Poor Bloody Observer wasn't carried by every British and Commonwealth two-seater? Because the extra weight made it impossible for any but a superman to swivel and elevate them at altitude due to lack of oxygen, so they remained the equipment of low-level Corps art-obs and contact patrol aircraft.

 

[Chalenge]

Compressed air in steel tanks were used in aircraft in 1917 but it was a very simple system and could fail easily in combat especially if the pilot misplaced the breathing tube.

[Nemisis]

I know angus, the danger line is above 13k.

[The Fugitive]

This was posted on the Main HTC web page when they announced the WWI arena......

We are pleased to announce an upcoming expansion to the Aces High plane set that will introduce World War I (WWI) air combat to the skies of Aces High. The initial four plane set will consist of the Fokker Dr.I, Sopwith Camel, Bristol F.2B, and Fokker D.VII.

So those are the four we will get with the release. And now we have a "wish" for the SPAD, and the game hasn't even been released yet!  LOL!!

[Angus]

How high were the Gotha's and the Zeppelins flying? More than 13K for sure....?
Anyway, in the 30K's one also should start feeling "bends", and they're pretty nasty at 40K. At 50K the pressure is so low that one cannot breathe (inhale) any more, - hence the pressure breathing of the uncompressed aircraft that operated so high.
The bends was a problem which hurt some more than others BTW.

[Chalenge]

The Zeppelins had steel tanks with liquid oxygen at duty stations and the crew also had iron flasks of liquid oxygen so they could move from one location to another and then hook up to a steel tank again.

At the end of WW1 there were 3000 specialty masks delivered to France (the first of their type) that had been produced in America and included microphones for communications and rebreather apparatus (not of perfect design though). America was not the first to produce such things (Germany and France being among the first) but they did make marked improvements in manufacturing quality.

[Anaxogoras]

How high were the Gotha's and the Zeppelins flying? More than 13K for sure....?
Anyway, in the 30K's one also should start feeling "bends", and they're pretty nasty at 40K. At 50K the pressure is so low that one cannot breathe (inhale) any more, - hence the pressure breathing of the uncompressed aircraft that operated so high.
The bends was a problem which hurt some more than others BTW.

IIRC, Gothas flew much higher than Zeppelins.  They had a service ceiling of more than 20k ft.

[Wmaker]

How high were the Gotha's and the Zeppelins flying? More than 13K for sure....?

For Zeppelins, the usual ceilings were around 9-14k. I'm sure there were higher altitudes achieved but not by much. Because of the very nature how Zeppelins operated you could only go so high and get back down safely because acending involved dropping ballast and decending involved replacing hydrogen with air. You of course had to account for the bombs you were going to drop so they RTB'ed higher than they flew to the target.

[Chalenge]

Read for yourself the history of oxygen systems used in military aircraft:

http://www.authorsden.com/categories/article_top.asp?catid=73&id=36665

[Warspawn]

Remember, the FAA doesn't even require Oxygen for general aviation pilots until they hit 14,000 feet, or if you're at 12,500ft or more for longer than 30 min...

I went up to Spokane, WA to the altitude chamber at Fairchild.  They took us up to 25k, where I started feeling pretty hypoxic, but I was able to do most of the tests they assigned all the way up to about 18k or so.  Would it be safe to fly that high without supplemental O2?  Nope.  But could it be done if necessary in wartime?  Sure.

[Ruah]

the Fokker D.VII is all I need - the rest is just targets to take out.  Thats what I fly on RoF, and thats what I will fly here.

[LesterBoffo]

 Hi I'm new here.

  Getting back on topic, the Spad XIII was at best. a fast plane, and a terrific diver, but with it's weight and gentle airfoil camber, it was at it's limit for anything more than zoom and boom tactics.  The Spad VII was still preferred by some of the French and Lafayette squads when the Spad XII arrived, as it had speed and could still maneuver somewhat. What isn't mentioned is the geardrive tenderness of the 200 H.P. Hisso, or the weakness of it's cooling system.  Comparing one of the best WWII fighters that had a relatively long history in it's theatre of use to a model improvement that appeared somewhat late to WWI is a bit of an apples to oranges.

 I would suggest that the SE5A could be an example of a WWI plane that was kinda like the Spitty or Mustang.  But you have to remember that most WWI planes didn't weigh much over 1700 pounds, were largely made of hi tensile steel wire, wood and cloth, had gobs of drag, and had engines and guns that more often times than not, just conked out for no good reason.

 Now the Spad XI two seater, it could be possibly compared with the Curtiss Helldiver....

  Oh yeah, I also make 3D models of WWI planes.

[Karnak]

Comparing one of the best WWII fighters that had a relatively long history in it's theatre of use to a model improvement that appeared somewhat late to WWI is a bit of an apples to oranges.

The P-51 also appeared late in the game, fyi.  The P-38, P-47 and Spitfire had the lion's share of work in the west already done when the Merlin powered P-51 arrived on the scene.

[Chalenge]

He also missed the point that most airplanes had either welded steel tubing or welded aluminum tubing for a fuselage (at least) and most control surfaces were the same.

[LesterBoffo]

The P-51 also appeared late in the game, fyi.  The P-38, P-47 and Spitfire had the lion's share of work in the west already done when the Merlin powered P-51 arrived on the scene.

 March of '43 isn't that late to the game, plus there were a number delivered to England on lend lease that saw action before then.  Not great numbers mind you, and with the Allison instead of the Merlin or Packard.

  My dad saw one of the prototypes fly from the North American test airfield in '39.  He said it was incredibly fast even then.