Author Topic: Jet Performance Graphs  (Read 2583 times)

Offline eagl

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Re: Jet Performance Graphs
« Reply #60 on: March 19, 2010, 10:03:33 PM »
The up-cant angle is to give a couple more degrees of lead in a turning fight.  The problem with that in strafing is that the bullets sort of get lofted towards the target, and normal ballistic impact point is ahead of the plane that accuracy and weapons effect (bullet speed at impact) is severely degraded.  As you dive down on a strafe pass in the F-15E, the pipper starts low in the hud, moves up, pauses for a second at the bullet apex well ABOVE the aircraft's flight path, and then slowly starts dropping back towards the velocity vector (the flight path indicator in the hud).  With a computing air to ground gunsight, it is merely difficult.  With only a fixed (adjustable but non-computing) reticle, the reticle is only accurate at exactly 2 ranges, once at very very close range with the bullets still lofting up over the flight path, and once at longer range when the bullets head back down.  So you have to do a lot of computation on the ground, to determine the exact dive angle, speed, and firing altitude.  So you have to have the pipper exactly on the target at the instant that the plane hits the exact dive angle and altitude, otherwise the bullets go... who knows where, either well short of the target or far far beyond the target.

The way the geometry works out, you have to dive at the ground in front of the target since the bullets are lofted up past where the plane is flying, and hope you judged things right so the pipper gets to the target before you hit your abort altitude or plow into the ground.  It is possible to open fire at much longer range where the bullets are dropping back down, but the bullets are going so slow by then that they may not explode or cause much damage when they hit.  I read a story of a guy who got hit by a 20mm training round...  Some F-16s were strafing with a new, more aerodynamic type of 20mm round (PGU), but they didn't know that at low angles the new rounds would skip off the ground and travel for miles.  So some rounds skipped well off the range and hit some guy driving in a car a few miles past the target.  It lodged in his chest and he survived.

Come to think of it, that would be an interesting addition to the AH damage model... 20mm hits to the pilot at velocities below minimum for fuze operation could merely cause a pilot wound?

In a plane with the gun boresighted with the airframe, the bullets only drop, so the pipper is always below the velocity vector at tactically relevant speeds in a stable dive, so you are diving to a point past the target, not diving to a spot in front of the target.

« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 10:06:45 PM by eagl »
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Offline Elfie

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Re: Jet Performance Graphs
« Reply #61 on: March 19, 2010, 11:21:42 PM »
Worked F-15s in Okinawa and never heard of an F-15 jock who disliked it or thought anything in the world could beat it. It is a real MANS plane to work on as I imagine it is to fly!! I believe everyone ever associated with this fine aircraft without a doubt truely loves it, It was my favorite I ever worked on!! Can't say the the same for the F-16 though  ;)

Not trying to hijack, reading this brought back a few fond memories <S>

I worked F-15's in Alaska, awesome plane.
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In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline Elfie

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Re: Jet Performance Graphs
« Reply #62 on: March 19, 2010, 11:26:13 PM »
The F-15E has the up-canted gun, yes.  And it is challenging to strafe, yes.  The employment range has to be a bit longer than other ground attack aircraft and the dive angle is typically steeper.  If you know how to do it though, it's just like any other strafe pass, just put the pipper on the target and squeeze, keeping slant range, dive angle, and altimeter in the crosscheck.


I stand corrected on this, I worked the other variants of F-15's and didn't realize that only the E had a gun that was mounted at an angle.
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline eagl

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Re: Jet Performance Graphs
« Reply #63 on: March 20, 2010, 08:59:43 AM »
I stand corrected on this, I worked the other variants of F-15's and didn't realize that only the E had a gun that was mounted at an angle.

I wasn't clear on that...  All F-15 variants have the angled gun.  I specifically mentioned the E because it's the US variant that has to strafe.
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Offline Penguin

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Re: Jet Performance Graphs
« Reply #64 on: March 20, 2010, 09:57:17 AM »
What about cost? If the Eagle is twice as expensive as the 25, the enemy could deploy twice as many of them!  Think of what we did in WW2 with Shermans; overfill the system until it shuts down.  We might slaughter our Russian adversaries and lose but one plane, but if the next morning they have replaced everything, all is lost.

Just my $0.02, since it's not always a 1v1, because the country with more planes can make it a 2v1 (curse the bish hordes!  :furious)

-Penguin

Offline Elfie

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Re: Jet Performance Graphs
« Reply #65 on: March 20, 2010, 10:48:24 AM »
I wasn't clear on that...  All F-15 variants have the angled gun.  I specifically mentioned the E because it's the US variant that has to strafe.

I installed/removed many guns from A-D variants, I don't believe those have the angled gun.
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline Motherland

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Re: Jet Performance Graphs
« Reply #66 on: March 20, 2010, 11:36:53 AM »
What about cost? If the Eagle is twice as expensive as the 25, the enemy could deploy twice as many of them!  Think of what we did in WW2 with Shermans; overfill the system until it shuts down.  We might slaughter our Russian adversaries and lose but one plane, but if the next morning they have replaced everything, all is lost.

Just my $0.02, since it's not always a 1v1, because the country with more planes can make it a 2v1 (curse the bish hordes!  :furious)

-Penguin
Russia's broke...

Offline eagl

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Re: Jet Performance Graphs
« Reply #67 on: March 20, 2010, 12:43:34 PM »
I installed/removed many guns from A-D variants, I don't believe those have the angled gun.

It's angled up, trust me.  It isn't obvious since it's just a couple of degrees.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Jet Performance Graphs
« Reply #68 on: March 20, 2010, 05:22:07 PM »
Hey...you spend that much time probing fish butts and see if you don`t get confused. :)

:rofl


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Offline Penguin

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Re: Jet Performance Graphs
« Reply #69 on: March 20, 2010, 05:54:25 PM »
Okay guys, let's not get too carried away here... Oh what am I saying, on with the roast!  :devil

-Penuin

Offline MORAY37

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Re: Jet Performance Graphs
« Reply #70 on: March 21, 2010, 12:31:26 PM »
See Rule #4
« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 10:32:12 AM by Skuzzy »
"Ocean: A body of water occupying 2/3 of a world made for man...who has no gills."
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Offline Bronk

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Re: Jet Performance Graphs
« Reply #71 on: March 21, 2010, 02:07:47 PM »
See Rule #2
« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 10:27:08 AM by Skuzzy »
See Rule #4

Offline MORAY37

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Re: Jet Performance Graphs
« Reply #72 on: March 21, 2010, 02:15:23 PM »
See Rule #2
« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 10:27:17 AM by Skuzzy »
"Ocean: A body of water occupying 2/3 of a world made for man...who has no gills."
-Ambrose Bierce

Offline Bronk

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Re: Jet Performance Graphs
« Reply #73 on: March 21, 2010, 02:20:52 PM »
See Rule #2
« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 10:27:38 AM by Skuzzy »
See Rule #4

Offline sluggish

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Re: Jet Performance Graphs
« Reply #74 on: March 21, 2010, 02:23:30 PM »
Moray...  Honestly...  If I needed info on sea turtles you'd be the first I'd come to.  Info on climate or fighter jet tech...  not so much.

You read a book and have an interest so you opinion outweighs the real world experience of an actual fighter jock.. because... well, because he's retired?  Seriously?  

Let me put this another way...  Let's say forty years from now you're fortunate enough to still be alive and retired.  You're surfing some intardnet BBS and some punk calls into question your knowledge of marine biology because... well... because...  He's read a few books and has an interest AND...  after all...  Haven't you been retired for a while?...

You have no business crying about so-called personal attacks when, in many people's opinion here, that is exactly what you have done to eagl...