Author Topic: No Enemy Icons, The new standard  (Read 6376 times)

Offline Valkyrie

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No Enemy Icons, The new standard
« on: February 26, 2010, 11:47:53 PM »
After tonight's raging success, the FSO standard should be changed to a no Enemy icon event. With friendly icons on it was easy to tell friend from foe, but you were much better able to lose people, bounce people, and survive. The game play was fantastic and will really add to the FSO immersion factor so often talked about.

I can't wait to see it,

Big <S> to daddog for running the test event and a big WTFG for the absolute success. And again this should be the new FSO standard.

Vlkyrie1
« Last Edit: February 26, 2010, 11:55:28 PM by Valkyrie »

Offline Nefarious

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Re: No Enemy Icons, The new standard
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2010, 11:53:51 PM »
It was fun and very exciting. But I think we need some more testing.

I for one think that the friendly icon range should be increased. I think there is a risk here that these settings could reduce the amount of action in an event like FSO.
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline FiLtH

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Re: No Enemy Icons, The new standard
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2010, 12:27:01 AM »
 It was fun but I think limit the "no icon" option for the Combat Challenge, and leaving FSO as is.

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Offline hlbly

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Re: No Enemy Icons, The new standard
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2010, 01:31:31 AM »
Big monitors will decide alot of fights .

Offline Valkyrie

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Re: No Enemy Icons, The new standard
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2010, 01:50:56 AM »
You know I almost hated to post this as there are sure to be people criticise this who were not there and can't speak intelligently about it.

vlkyrie

Offline Vulcan

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Re: No Enemy Icons, The new standard
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2010, 05:30:32 AM »
No icons is fine in early war setups, but the reality is the game cannot replicate the fidelity of a Mk 1 eyeball and brain in real life. Icons make up for that. Leave FSO as is please.

Offline SD67

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Re: No Enemy Icons, The new standard
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2010, 06:07:08 AM »
I thoroughly enjoyed it.
The short friendly icon range coupled with the no enemy icon made for a very exciting experience.
You actually had to use the radio and communicate with people. You had to make sure to go and look at cons to be sure if they were friend or foe. When you got engaged you had to keep your wits about you and your eyes open. You had to communicate to your countrymen a lot more and you had to do it quickly and concisely.
It could cut both ways in FSO when it comes to survivability and action. More people will survive due to being able to make better use of ground clutter to escape (that icon really does give them away fast) yet more may die due to friendly fire from people opening up too soon before a proper I.D. has been made (much as it would have happened in real combat). When it comes to the action, we already fly around for hours without seeing a single con some days. I don't see how this will change any of that. What it will do is make it much more invigorating when you do find that action. Scouting missions will be taken to a whole new level of importance, since you can no longer depend on an icon reading from several thousand yards away to determine friend from foe. Scouts will have to use their wits and the tools on hand (they still have a range channel on the Vox don't they?) to determine enemy locations. By the same token, it will be harder for a scouting craft to be busted simply on the glimpse of a red icon 10000 ft away.
Excellent concept. Even if it's not integrated into FSO I will definitely be there for the next Combat Challenge.
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Offline daddog

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Re: No Enemy Icons, The new standard
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2010, 10:08:10 AM »
Glad you guys enjoyed it. :)

As I have said in other threads the Arena Settings which include icon ranges are up to each Admin CM. I don't see making icons off an FSO standard despite many asking for that last night. I have an FSO this summer and will probably fiddle with the icons as I did in my last one, but it is my impression (which could be wrong) that most Admin's for FSO will keep the standard short range icon settings we have used successfully for years.
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Offline Bino

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Re: No Enemy Icons, The new standard
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2010, 11:49:46 AM »
Quote from: hlbly
Big monitors will decide alot of fights .

Quote from: Vulcan
No icons is fine in early war setups, but the reality is the game cannot replicate the fidelity of a Mk 1 eyeball and brain in real life. Icons make up for that. Leave FSO as is please.

Agree with both of the above.  Would also add that local desktop and/or AH settings would also heavily influence who can see what, and when.

I really enjoyed this first sample of the Combat Challenge, and look forward to more "experiments."   :)


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Offline Motherland

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Re: No Enemy Icons, The new standard
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2010, 11:58:01 AM »
Big monitors will decide alot of fights .

Actually with the way AH seems to work (planes past a certain distance take up a single pixel no matter what) the lower your resolution is the better chance you have of spotting someone.

Offline gyrene81

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Re: No Enemy Icons, The new standard
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2010, 12:33:07 PM »
No icons is fine in early war setups, but the reality is the game cannot replicate the fidelity of a Mk 1 eyeball and brain in real life. Icons make up for that. Leave FSO as is please.
Hit the Z key on your keyboard with maximum zoom and that thing you're focusing on 15000 feet (3000 yards) away has more definition on your 19 inch monitor than a human eyeball can actually see in real life at that distance. The arcade world and all of its excuses are fine for the main arenas but it's been my impression that FSO was supposed to be a big step up from the main arenas...just judging from some of the responses to this thread (and I'm sure there will be many pages more), perhaps it's more like, simply an organized once a week gathering of AvA players who prefer the arcade settings found in the other arenas...if that is the case, may as well just stay in the main arenas and setup missions, then get frustrated because no one wants to participate.

Think about it, in the MA's you rely on the 5000 yard visual cue that says friend or foe...you don't even have to really think, just look at your screen...as you're closing in, the distance markers showing the number of yards between you and the target tell you when you're at the optimum distance for the weapons convergence you set in the hangar and you know when you open fire, you're going to hit the target...as the distance closes it's easy to compensate because of the visual cues...and you can almost shoot down your foe without even focusing on the gunsight. But without those visual cues...now you have to rely on the things you normally take for granted...what does a Spit 8 look like from 5000 yards if it's co alt and coming at you? What does it look like at 300 yards in the gunsight or on your tail? How much lead do you need to hit the target when it's turning? Without the visual cues found in the main arenas, you have to do things you may not normally do...like use the zoom function and adjust it for maximum functionlity just like a tank gun sight...or wait until you get closer to take the shot...don't make that radical stick stirring move that will cause a blackout knowing that when the screen clears it will be easy to find your foe because of the big red letters...use teamwork and communication to help a team mate shoot down a foe...and dropping down into an ongoing fight to get an "easy pick" is a lot more risky.

For those who missed it, the settings last night were challenging but not overly so...situational awareness and communications were more important than usual...if it had been single life instead of the unlimited lives we had, the fights would have been much more intense...and I know there are hundreds who participate in the FSO who constantly talk smack saying "it's about the fight"...well, the settings from last night made those fights much more intense...it's one thing to see a dot in the distance and race toward it relying on identifying marks to appear on your screen eventually telling you whether it's friend or foe...it's a different story to do so then suddenly realize you're less than 1000 yards away from an enemy who is now coming at you full throttle and now you have little time to prepare for a fight...and now the fight isn't so easy.


+Salute+ Daddog and the people who stuck around to make it fun.
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Offline 68ZooM

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Re: No Enemy Icons, The new standard
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2010, 12:41:46 PM »
SA and the fight, it was a good time, you would be surprised how many people rely on that icon to location and aiming, without it its a whole new dogfight, i seen enemy crossing in front of me, countrymen on there 6's , with enemy on there 6  it was Intense, cant wait for the next one.
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Offline Padre

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Re: No Enemy Icons, The new standard
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2010, 12:45:30 PM »
I wasn't there...and I agree 100% with Valk and Gyrene.
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Offline Motherland

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Re: No Enemy Icons, The new standard
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2010, 12:55:19 PM »
Hit the Z key on your keyboard with maximum zoom and that thing you're focusing on 15000 feet (3000 yards) away has more definition on your 19 inch monitor than a human eyeball can actually see in real life at that distance. The arcade world and all of its excuses are fine for the main arenas but it's been my impression that FSO was supposed to be a big step up from the main arenas...just judging from some of the responses to this thread (and I'm sure there will be many pages more), perhaps it's more like, simply an organized once a week gathering of AvA players who prefer the arcade settings found in the other arenas...if that is the case, may as well just stay in the main arenas and setup missions, then get frustrated because no one wants to participate.

Think about it, in the MA's you rely on the 5000 yard visual cue that says friend or foe...you don't even have to really think, just look at your screen...as you're closing in, the distance markers showing the number of yards between you and the target tell you when you're at the optimum distance for the weapons convergence you set in the hangar and you know when you open fire, you're going to hit the target...as the distance closes it's easy to compensate because of the visual cues...and you can almost shoot down your foe without even focusing on the gunsight. But without those visual cues...now you have to rely on the things you normally take for granted...what does a Spit 8 look like from 5000 yards if it's co alt and coming at you? What does it look like at 300 yards in the gunsight or on your tail? How much lead do you need to hit the target when it's turning? Without the visual cues found in the main arenas, you have to do things you may not normally do...like use the zoom function and adjust it for maximum functionlity just like a tank gun sight...or wait until you get closer to take the shot...don't make that radical stick stirring move that will cause a blackout knowing that when the screen clears it will be easy to find your foe because of the big red letters...use teamwork and communication to help a team mate shoot down a foe...and dropping down into an ongoing fight to get an "easy pick" is a lot more risky.

For those who missed it, the settings last night were challenging but not overly so...situational awareness and communications were more important than usual...if it had been single life instead of the unlimited lives we had, the fights would have been much more intense...and I know there are hundreds who participate in the FSO who constantly talk smack saying "it's about the fight"...well, the settings from last night made those fights much more intense...it's one thing to see a dot in the distance and race toward it relying on identifying marks to appear on your screen eventually telling you whether it's friend or foe...it's a different story to do so then suddenly realize you're less than 1000 yards away from an enemy who is now coming at you full throttle and now you have little time to prepare for a fight...and now the fight isn't so easy.


+Salute+ Daddog and the people who stuck around to make it fun.
This is 100% spot on.

I had no trouble at all last night distinguishing friend from foe far beyond friendly icon range despite the fact that the 109 and the Spitfire are very similar in size and fairly similar in shape, save when I was trailing someone from the dead six position. Using zoom (which I use all the time anyway), as gyrene said, it's not difficult at all and probably easier than trying to identify in real life.

The only things that it changed were SA and shooting... I didn't hit anything beside the ground outside of 300 yards (I'm a poor shot anyway).
I never realized how much I relied on the icon, not just for things that you'd think of, but things that you wouldn't... judging range for shooting, obviously, judging friendly or foe instantaneously, obviously (it takes a second to look at the plane shape and identify), but also things like judging my own speed... I must use the closing speed on icons to judge my speed when I'm diving because several times I was going a lot faster than I thought I was and couldn't pull up for the shot.

So many times I thought I was in the clear, and heard 'check six bubi!', and yanked on the stick and turned my head just in time to see a Spitfire shoot by me (or I was simply parted with my aircraft). It was unreal.

It was fantastic, easily the most fun I've had in AH. A more FSO environment (one life, objectives etc.) with these settings would be....

 :pray

Offline ink

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Re: No Enemy Icons, The new standard
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2010, 01:11:17 PM »
No icons is fine in early war setups, but the reality is the game cannot replicate the fidelity of a Mk 1 eyeball and brain in real life. Icons make up for that. Leave FSO as is please.

ICONS make it EASY to track an nme con's period, they in NO way make up for the human eye, the thing a lot seem to forget is the fact that seeing the nme first was the way most got there kills, in AH if you dont see an nme but happen to look around BAMM there is a huge neon sign over them, well that does not simulate the human eye, in the real world you could easily miss an nme right off your 6, I am sure many now realize, how Icons make it WAY easier to see, track and fire upon the nme.

I think FSO should stay the way it is, and the off nights have this "Aces High Challenge" except, remove ALL icons.