No Enemy Icons, The new standard

[AKKuya]

Every squad that participates in the FSO should have it's CO or XO monitoring this BBS Section. They could encourage their squadmates to vote on if they like or dislike the icon settings that way it's not left to forum hounds. Run the settings at no enemy icons for a few frames and then vote. It would be a good way to settle an old argument, plus if the majority of FSO pilots would vote it would be the community's preference. YMMV
<S>

I'm all for that.  The only way for the entire FSO community to be heard is via e-mail.  If every rank and file member of the community agreed to have their email address given to the FSO CM staff, then mass emails could be sent for a voting process.  A very simple way to get the pulse of the enemy icon range debate. 

Just my 2 cents.

[ImADot]

I'm all for short icons (1.0-1.5k), but not off altogther.  Last night I spotted a small group of dots heading to A126 which we were tasked to protect.  Long before icon range, I could tell they were bombers from the size and profile, and could tell their direction.  I had no idea what kind they were or exactly how far away they were until I was seconds away from firing.  If they would have had escorts, it would have been much more difficult to determine their (the escorts) type and direction until they were well inside guns range (mine and theirs).

While I like the "fog of war" that the settings in FSO provide, there's a point that I hope we don't cross where the game (and yes, it's a game) becomes more work than game.  I'm no aircraft profile expert, and am not well versed in the planes and weapons of WWII.  I found a fun game to play that offers many fun challenges.  I would rather it not start requiring hours of research and study to be able to tell a 109 from a 190 from a Spitfire from 2k out.

[oakranger]

Every squad that participates in the FSO should have it's CO or XO monitoring this BBS Section. They could encourage their squadmates to vote on if they like or dislike the icon settings that way it's not left to forum hounds. Run the settings at no enemy icons for a few frames and then vote. It would be a good way to settle an old argument, plus if the majority of FSO pilots would vote it would be the community's preference. YMMV
<S>

Like that idea shifty. 

[whiteman]

icons off wouldn't work the current setup, don't we have 109's on both sides? don't mind short but not off.

[daddog]

I really wished Valkyrie had picked another title for this thread. So many who peruse the forums once and a while read the thread title and get worked up. Replies of CM's get buried and unless someone wants to read dozens of replies they really don't know what the Admin CM's have said.

As far as a poll, maybe. I like polls, but really the only poll that would hold a 100% weight with me would be one that HTC would have to setup for the 500 FSO players log in and have to take one concerning icons. A poll in the FSO forums would only weigh the opinion of those who read the forums. I am guessing 2/3 at the most of the FSO participants, might be closer to 1/3.

Again, just to be clear I have no intention of turning off all the icons in FSO. Some Admin CM's may opt for enemy icons off, or maybe a shorter range for enemy icons and longer for friendly, or maybe just keep it as is. It is up to each CM how they design their event. Enemy icons off is NOT a new FSO standard.

Some of you hate icons off. Some of you love it. I get that. Some of you think it is more 'realistic', some call it more challenging. Some think it is totally unrealistic and others think it is 'gamey'. My PM box abounds with opinions, just like this thread. Some of you will not participate in FSO if the icons are off. I get that. No different than a squad that has lower attendance because they get saddled with a ride they don't want and a couple guys decide not to fly that night. So long as squads keep in the +2 or -2 they will never hear from me.

[Shifty]

icons off wouldn't work the current setup, don't we have 109's on both sides? don't mind short but not off.

Pfft anybody flying a 109 should be shot down no matter what side they fly for. 

[BigR]

The worst part about all this is that you guys change the icon settings from FSO to FSO without telling anyone. If i would have known you were going to have them at such a short range, I would have not even bothered to show up last night. I could have gone and done something more fun. Icons are the great equalizer for people without big monitors or good eyesight. Turning them off is IMO stupid, and takes away from GAMEplay. 3k Is the ideal icon range in FSOs, and it has worked for years. This is not real life or even a simulation. This is a game. Dont kid yourselves.

[Vulcan]

You lost me there.  Can you explain that?

Sometimes people see what they want to see, especially under stressful situations. The most significant part of vision is not the eyeball, but the brain. Buck fever is sometimes used to describe hunters who 'see' a deer, but it's something else, and no matter how clear the image is they still see a deer (this is when a lot of other hunters get shot).

[morfiend]

  While I realize that DD has no intention of making FSO a "no icon" event,I would like to be informed ahead of time as to the icon settings. Stating that icon range is short was ok before the CM's were given the ability to adjust the icon range as they have now.

 Seeing that the icon range can be changed to various alts,etc. maybe stating in the setup what the actual range{s} will be might make enough of a difference that players wont complain so much.

  ya I live in a fantasy world.......

  

[Enker]

When we were on patrol last night, we were able to identify the enemies from 3k out without using icons, as we could see that they had large wingspans and two engines. They almost slipped under us because of the lack of icons. I like it because it requires us to stay on our toes.

[AKKuya]

The worst part about all this is that you guys change the icon settings from FSO to FSO without telling anyone. If i would have known you were going to have them at such a short range, I would have not even bothered to show up last night. I could have gone and done something more fun. 

This is on the Special Events website for FSO when clicking current set-up link.

ARENA SETTINGS
- Greece
- Fuel 1.00
- Icons short
- .5 Ack
- Radar (Bar only) : 60 mile range,10 minute update, altitude 500 ft and up
- Fighter and Bomber warning range 26,000 (about 5 miles)
- Tower range set to 26,000 (for display only to match the above setting)
- Clouds / visibility
  Frame 1, 9 miles
  Frame 2, 11 miles
  Frame 3, 8 miles
- Radar off
- Friendly collisions off
- Enemy collisions on
- Kill shooter off
- Calm winds
- Time: 11 AM

The information was available to you if you took the time to look. 

Icons are the great equalizer for people without big monitors or good eyesight. Turning them off is IMO stupid, and takes away from GAMEplay. 3k Is the ideal icon range in FSOs, and it has worked for years. This is not real life or even a simulation. This is a game. Dont kid yourselves.

That part I agree with you.  We don't want to create a situation where every player who wants to excel at FSO would need to save lots of money for purchasing a very large monitor around 32 inches or greater.  My opinion is 2K at the mininum nothing lesser. 

In hindsight, this one time made a new experience in the fact that the not knowing of the bogey until the last minute was a bandit created a new thrill.  That's all.

[Motherland]

We don't want to create a situation where every player who wants to excel at FSO would need to save lots of money for purchasing a very large monitor around 32 inches or greater.

Just out of curiosity where do you guys come up with these numbers? I'm not going to deny that a larger monitor can have a marginal (maybe more IDK I haven't tried it) effect on identifying dots out of icon range, but during the combat challenge I could tell 109's from Spitfires easily from outside of friendly icon range (3.0K) on my 22" monitor (which I know is bigger than average...).

[BigR]

This is on the Special Events website for FSO when clicking current set-up link.

ARENA SETTINGS
- Greece
- Fuel 1.00
- Icons short
- .5 Ack
- Radar (Bar only) : 60 mile range,10 minute update, altitude 500 ft and up
- Fighter and Bomber warning range 26,000 (about 5 miles)
- Tower range set to 26,000 (for display only to match the above setting)
- Clouds / visibility
  Frame 1, 9 miles
  Frame 2, 11 miles
  Frame 3, 8 miles
- Radar off
- Friendly collisions off
- Enemy collisions on
- Kill shooter off
- Calm winds
- Time: 11 AM

The information was available to you if you took the time to look. 

That part I agree with you.  We don't want to create a situation where every player who wants to excel at FSO would need to save lots of money for purchasing a very large monitor around 32 inches or greater.  My opinion is 2K at the mininum nothing lesser. 

In hindsight, this one time made a new experience in the fact that the not knowing of the bogey until the last minute was a bandit created a new thrill.  That's all.

LOL what does "icons short" mean? It could mean anything from 2.9k to 1 yard. That tells me nothing. Ive seen icon short listed in settings before and it wasnt 1k. Real numbers would be nice.

[TequilaChaser]

I really wished Valkyrie had picked another title for this thread. So many who peruse the forums once and a while read the thread title and get worked up. Replies of CM's get buried and unless someone wants to read dozens of replies they really don't know what the Admin CM's have said.

As far as a poll, maybe. I like polls, but really the only poll that would hold a 100% weight with me would be one that HTC would have to setup for the 500 FSO players log in and have to take one concerning icons. A poll in the FSO forums would only weigh the opinion of those who read the forums. I am guessing 2/3 at the most of the FSO participants, might be closer to 1/3.

Again, just to be clear I have no intention of turning off all the icons in FSO. Some Admin CM's may opt for enemy icons off, or maybe a shorter range for enemy icons and longer for friendly, or maybe just keep it as is. It is up to each CM how they design their event. Enemy icons off is NOT a new FSO standard.

Some of you hate icons off. Some of you love it. I get that. Some of you think it is more 'realistic', some call it more challenging. Some think it is totally unrealistic and others think it is 'gamey'. My PM box abounds with opinions, just like this thread. Some of you will not participate in FSO if the icons are off. I get that. No different than a squad that has lower attendance because they get saddled with a ride they don't want and a couple guys decide not to fly that night. So long as squads keep in the +2 or -2 they will never hear from me.

Well Put!!!

[TequilaChaser]

As far as a poll, maybe. I like polls, but really the only poll that would hold a 100% weight with me would be one that HTC would have to setup for the 500 FSO players log in and have to take one concerning icons. A poll in the FSO forums would only weigh the opinion of those who read the forums. I am guessing 2/3 at the most of the FSO participants, might be closer to 1/3.

this is how ALL polls should be set up regarding anything to do with Aces High Game Play, imo......

that way, only HTC employees, themselves, could compute the data and show us the results.......

having a POLL in the forums, it is possible to see the current standings and skew them one way or the other, if the need or desire was there to manipulate the results.....

again, my opinion, YMMV.......