Author Topic: Counter vs Co-Rotating Props  (Read 18263 times)

Offline boomerlu

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Counter vs Co-Rotating Props
« on: March 08, 2010, 01:15:37 PM »
Hey guys, I was wondering... why do some of our twin engine planes have co-rotating props instead of counter-rotating ones? Is there any disadvantage to having counter-rotating props that would offset the advantage of having no net torque?

Thanks.
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Offline Yossarian

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Re: Counter vs Co-Rotating Props
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2010, 01:37:23 PM »
I'm sure someone else will have more to say on this, but here's what I know.  Basically, if you have counter-rotating propellers, you need two different engines, which increases cost and complexity.  However with both engines rotating the same direction, you only need one type of engine.
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Offline morfiend

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Re: Counter vs Co-Rotating Props
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2010, 01:41:21 PM »
 The main disadvantage to counter rotating eng. is the fact that 2 engines must be kept "on hand" for replacement.

 With a twin that has noncounter rotating engines,any engine would do as a replacement,OTH the counter rotating twin would need "handed" engines and this could be a logistics nightmare.


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Offline Ardy123

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Re: Counter vs Co-Rotating Props
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2010, 01:59:47 PM »
Why 2 engines?  :headscratch: Aren't most of the props geared down? I'd imagine it would just be the gearing part that would be different.
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Offline boomerlu

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Re: Counter vs Co-Rotating Props
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2010, 02:08:57 PM »
CC all - it's a logistical thing not a combat performance one. :salute
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Offline Krusty

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Re: Counter vs Co-Rotating Props
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2010, 02:30:48 PM »
It's not just gearboxing, the P-38s (if I recall right) had different crankshats among other things. They were convertable, but it was not just a simple swap of parts. It took some work to rebuild them to spin the other way.

When you consider that many twin engine designs flew and fought with co-rotating props during the war, the one-sided torque was not the deciding factor -- as much as the typically diminishing returns on performance as compared to single engine fighters.


Co-rotating the props meant less work, less reliability, not really much benefit gained for making them counter-rotating. So basically the P-38 was the only (don't kill me for saying this if you think otherwise) "successful" counter-rotating design of the war.

There are also downfalls to the counter-rotating props... you could not reduce one engine, then reduce the other without first bringing that first engine back up to the level of the other. At least on the P-38, that is. So each design is not perfect.

Plus, all throughout WW2 engine design, teething problems, and failures during testing of new planes, were the common thread. Poor construction, lack of understanding, or bad manufacturing processes were rampant. Just getting the thing in the air with both engines running meant (usually) relying on an engine you already trusted.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 02:32:36 PM by Krusty »

Offline colmbo

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Re: Counter vs Co-Rotating Props
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2010, 04:31:24 PM »
The main reason for counter-rotation of props is to make the airplane more manageable with an engine inop (it's a p-factor thing), however in the case of the P-38 they turn the props "out" (done in search of a cure to the compressibility thing) so in effect have made both engines the critical engine.
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Counter vs Co-Rotating Props
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2010, 05:11:10 PM »
The main reason for counter-rotation of props is to make the airplane more manageable with an engine inop

you might want to rethink that one ... :D
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Offline W7LPNRICK

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Re: Counter vs Co-Rotating Props
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2010, 05:15:17 PM »
Easy to answer....get in a JU-88, remove Auto-Take-off option, full flaps, let loose of the stick and hit full throttle...  :x Really Fun! Right?...Counter rotating engines nearly eliminates torque problems.
"Another method of counteracting the torque effect is the use of contra-rotating propellers, or propellers that rotate in opposite directions. As piston engines became increasingly powerful in the 1940s, some single-engine aircraft required contra-rotating propellers to remain controllable. The Super-marine Seafire and Maachi M72 are examples of aircraft with such powerful engines that they needed twin contra-rotating props on the same shaft to cancel the torque effect. Contra-rotating props also offer advantages in eliminating other assymetrical effects and were found to give aircraft much better handling characteristics. In addition, the torque effect can be completely eliminated on multi-engined aircraft in a similar manner. Most twin-engined or four-engined piston aircraft use propellers that rotate in opposite directions to negate the torque effect. By rotating the right engine clockwise and the left engine counterclockwise, for example, the torques will cancel without any corrective action being necessary."  

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/dynamics/q0015a.shtml

Obviously the propeller which turns opposite the crank shaft also needs about 100+lbs of gears box to change rotation. The piston engine's don't normally rotate opposite, it's the gear box that reverses rotation.  :salute
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 05:22:39 PM by W7LPNRICK »
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Offline Krusty

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Re: Counter vs Co-Rotating Props
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2010, 05:31:21 PM »
Contra-rotating (single engine, 2 props) turned out not to be so useful. The weight was significant (and on the front of the plane, throwing CoG and balance off) and the added gain wasn't not very large. Later model spitfires tested contra-props but found little performance gain over the single-prop versions. Definitely not enough to be worth the headaches of maint/upkeep on them!  :D

But, that's all a side-point. Back to the regularly scheduled program!

Offline colmbo

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Re: Counter vs Co-Rotating Props
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2010, 07:31:52 PM »
you might want to rethink that one ... :D

Why?
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Counter vs Co-Rotating Props
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2010, 07:46:01 PM »
Why?

Because it doesn't matter for a two engined plane when only one of them is running :)
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Offline j500ss

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Re: Counter vs Co-Rotating Props
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2010, 08:29:31 PM »
Allisons were built in left and right configurations, as were the Detroit Diesel 2 cycle motors.  Not sure about the Allisons, but a DDA could be made left or right without much trouble really.  I'm really not aware of any other major manufactuer that did this, in any significant numbers anyway.

Offline W7LPNRICK

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Re: Counter vs Co-Rotating Props
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2010, 09:56:41 PM »
Contra-rotating (single engine, 2 props) turned out not to be so useful. The weight was significant (and on the front of the plane, throwing CoG and balance off) and the added gain wasn't not very large. Later model spitfires tested contra-props but found little performance gain over the single-prop versions. Definitely not enough to be worth the headaches of maint/upkeep on them!  :D

But, that's all a side-point. Back to the regularly scheduled program!

Yes, a major prohibiting factor against the Sikorsky helicopters with contra-rotating blades, size, weight & complexity of Transmissions (Already huge in a chopper anyway), and thus the expense, but MAN, can they fly!!
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 10:54:25 PM by W7LPNRICK »
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Offline colmbo

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Re: Counter vs Co-Rotating Props
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2010, 11:18:12 PM »
Because it doesn't matter for a two engined plane when only one of them is running :)

But it does matter.  With both props turning the same direction (clockwise from cockpit) having only the right engine will cause more control problems than having only the left engine due to p-factor.  It's the down moving blade being farther from the center of the airplane that is the issue...or at least that's what they teach when you get the multi rating. <G>
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"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."

Fate whispers to the warrior "You cannot withstand the storm" and the warrior whispers back "I AM THE STORM"