Author Topic: Toyota brake question....  (Read 4022 times)

Offline Tigger29

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Re: Toyota brake question....
« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2010, 11:01:10 PM »
OK guys... First off, I am an ASE Certified Master Technician with over 15 years in automotive repair.

Yes MOST cars built today do in fact have NO mechanical connection between the throttle pedal and the engine.  In the old days, a cable connected the gas pedal to a valve that controls how much air enters the engine.  The computer of a typical fuel injected system would detect this by a throttle position sensor at the air valve at the engine, and an airflow sensor (or a pressure sensor, or both) and would command the fuel injectors to stay open longer to add more fuel, allowing the engine to 'rev up'.  There was a separate air valve (often called a idle control valve) that was electrically controlled that would allow air to flow around the mechanical valve so the computer could control engine idle speed... to compensate for temperature, engine loads (A/C compressor, Power steering, high electrical loads, etc), and driving conditions.

On Most cars built today, instead of a mechanical air valve, it is controlled electrically by the computer with an electrical motor.  This 'simplifies' things a bit as the idle control valve can be eliminated.  The air valve is under a heavy spring load that the electric motor has to overcome so in the event of just about any failure, the computer would simply kill voltage going to this motor, and the air valve would simply spring shut.  Basically, the engine would likely continue to idle but depressing the gas pedal would result in nothing happening.

There is still a throttle position sensor at the air valve at the engine, but there are also two throttle position sensors built into the gas pedal assembly.  The computer uses the two in the gas pedal for redundancy purposes, and it uses the sensor at the air valve to make sure the electric motor is moving the valve to the proper position.  If the two pedal sensors don't read the same, the computer sets a fault code (check engine light) and will uses the lower input of the two.  If the computer sees a failure of the engine sensor (or the circuit for the throttle motor), it sets a fault code AND goes into a 'limp mode' of sorts which basically disables the throttle.

This makes it almost IMPOSSIBLE for the electrical system to malfunction in a way that the throttle valve at the engine would stay in the open position.

Now, here's the problem with the Toyota systems.  The Gas pedal assembly has an amount of built in mechanical resistance built in to it, to make it feel almost identical to the older cars which had resistance in the pedal due to the cable and mechanical valve.  What is happening is the pivot point of the pedal is wearing down a bit, and the resistance 'plate' rubs the pedal too hard, making it physically stick in a downward position.  Imagine your joystick... if you spilled a soda on it and it got all gummed up so bad that it would hang up on the gunk so much the spring couldn't pull it back to center.  Same basic thing.

Since the Pedal is sticking mechanically, the sensors all read properly and the computer actually thinks you're pressing down on the gas pedal.

The fix is to install a shim into the pedal assembly to push the resistance plate further away from the moving parts of the pedal, to compensate for the wear in the hinges.

Skuzzy is incorrect about traction control never having a mechanical connection.  Even if you hold the air valve open mechanically, the computer can still kill the injectors, or the coils to prevent the engine from running, or to reduce its power.

Skuzzy is however right about every manufacturer having skeletons in their closets.  I probably don't need to mention the Pintos.. or the 2.6L Mitsubishi engines in the first generation Caravans... Or the Ford Probe... Or the plastic intakes on the Ford 4.6L... or the plastic intake gaskets on the GM 3.1L, 3.4L, 4.3L, 5.7L... or maybe even Dexcool (known in the industry as 'death-cool') antifreeze.  Neon Head Gaskets?  How about the Ford trucks massive cruise control switch recall... and then the recall on their recall... that recall which was revised over 17 (yes that's SEVENTEEN times) because the harness that installed a fuse into an unfused circuit, had the fuse on the GROUND SIDE of the circuit for some models...  Anyway.. I could go on and on and on.  And yes imports are NOT exempt from these sorts of things either...

Regardless, with this being said, should your car even continue to accelerate after you take your foot off the gas, there ARE things you can do.  If it is a stick shift, you can always depress the clutch.  In an automatic, you can always move the shifter to neutral.  In either case, you can simply turn off the key (or if no key, push and hold the START/STOP button).

I just had a heated debate with my g/f a couple hours ago about this.  She said that she had no idea one could turn off the engine while driving the car.  I asked her if she ever read the owner's manual for her car.  She said 'no'.  It really amazes me how people will spend hours studying the manual for a $25 piece of electronic junk (or a $300 Joystick.. you get the point), but when it comes to a $20,000+ vehicle, most people never even look at the cover.  Yes it's very easy to blame the manufacturers for accidents resulting in malfunctions such as this, however if people would take even a few minutes to learn about these machines that they are trusting their own lives (and the lives of their families) to, then the VAST MAJORITY of these accidents could be easily avoided.

Offline Beefcake

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Re: Toyota brake question....
« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2010, 12:17:38 AM »
Thanks for the info Tigger, that really explained alot!
Retired Bomber Dweeb - 71 "Eagle" Squadron RAF

Offline whiteman

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Re: Toyota brake question....
« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2010, 03:20:15 AM »
Trigger in case of the Cali guy yesterday he said putting the car into neutral didn't not slow the car down, it kept going. I've heard that's the case in all these, shifting to N has done nothing, is it possible for that piece to cause that also or can these cars not shift to N while at high speeds? I know nothing about the Prius since i have zero interest in the car but would think any car could shift to N.

Offline skribetm

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Re: Toyota brake question....
« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2010, 06:05:31 AM »
so turning the car off would disengage the accelerator.
will the brakes work then? (foot and/or hand brakes)
i'm guessing power steering will also be lost when the car is turned off,
but that will only come into play once the car is running at 5MPH before it starts to feel "heavy."

thanks tigger.

Offline dedalos

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Re: Toyota brake question....
« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2010, 08:30:41 AM »
My Z/28 has a traction control but still has the throttle cable and the auto stick is still connect directly to the transmission, these Toyota's are all drive by wire. Which is why i think there is an electrical interference some where since the shifting in to Neutral does nothing once the car takes off.

I would bet on a software bug or a faulty sensor before I'd put any money on anything else.  There is something wrong with the model that they wont admit but will get fixed in the new version without any one knowing.  Hmmmmm  :lol
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline CAP1

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Re: Toyota brake question....
« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2010, 09:03:32 AM »
Here is my question: On the new cars do the brake and gas pedals actually connect to the engine / brake cylinders? Or do they connect to a computer that in turn commands the gas/brake?

some newer cars don't have a direct throttle linkage. some gm's....namely the firechicken....have had throttle by wire since the late 90's.
 i just had a cadi cts with  throttle by wire.


to the best of my knowledge, there is still direct hydraulic link to the brakes, although much of that is controlled through various computers, through the use of solenoids.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Toyota break question....
« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2010, 09:05:23 AM »
Drive by wire throttle is purely electrical (sensor based), with no mechanical link to the engine from the pedal.

Some manufacturers feature an E-Safe system. IE: Above a certain speed, stepping on the brake pedal bypasses the computer and sets engine speed to idle. Toyota doesn't offer that on most of the their car and truck line.

Brakes will always be operated by driver input as the primary input. However, various brake assist systems supplement driver input. Should the computer fail, you'll still have brakes, without ABS enabled.


My regards,

Widewing  

there;s some working on "dry" braking systems. basically a master cylinder on each strut, and an electric motor to actuate the caliper through those cylinders.......but no direct mechanical linkage.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Toyota brake question....
« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2010, 09:10:18 AM »
Absolutely true. We encountered a similar problem which could have resulted in brake failure. We've got ABS, like most modern vehicles. Pedals were operating just fine, vehicle was slowing just fine, except the Brake light was illuminated. Looked under the hood to find the master brake cylinder empty. It's absolutely ridiculous how little feedback there is for the driver. In some cases, I'm sure the lack of feedback has resulted in serious injury or death.

what kind of car?

if the master was empty, you had a leak(which should've been noticed by a sinking/mushy pedal) or your pads were fully worn out, and all the fluid was in your calipers.....in which case you should've had a squealing as the wear indicators hit the rotors.
 brake fluid doesn't evaporate.

 it's not a lack of feedback....,.....you just need to "listen:" to the little things your car tells you. and your car is ALWAYS talking to you.  :aok
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Toyota brake question....
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2010, 09:11:44 AM »
Yes, but it came on plenty of times before and we detected no problems (yes, we checked everything). The fact of the matter is, if the brake light comes on whenever it pleases, people will be inclined to ignore it. Therefore I find brake pedal feedback (such as sluggish response) combined with brake light illumination to be a greater indicator than only the brake light illuminating. If we didn't stay vigilant and check our system every time the light came on, we would have ignored the situation and plowed into something (or perhaps someone). ABS is great, yet its feedback lacks.

when it was going on n off, the fluid was low, and tripping the sensor under certain conditions.


 if your shop never explained this to you, you should consider looking for a new place to have your car serviced.
 part of our job(in my opinion) is to educate our customers about their cars.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Toyota brake question....
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2010, 09:12:25 AM »
All cars, equipped with some type of electronic traction control system, will have a computer controlled throttle with no direct physical connection to the gas pedal.  It has been that way for years.

early ones still had throttle cables.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Toyota brake question....
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2010, 09:14:08 AM »
A cell phone wont make anything flip out.  Does your car flip out every time you get a call?  Let me guess, you are using string and a can cause its more reliable than the electronic cell phone?

believe it or not, some of the "speed pay" systems at gas stations used to seriously screw with the security computers on chrysler products.

 i\
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Offline AKHog

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Re: Toyota brake question....
« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2010, 09:22:21 AM »
I have to agree with this 100%:

Quote
Yes it's very easy to blame the manufacturers for accidents resulting in malfunctions such as this, however if people would take even a few minutes to learn about these machines that they are trusting their own lives (and the lives of their families) to, then the VAST MAJORITY of these accidents could be easily avoided.

In the cases where shifting to n does nothing, its time to shut off the vehicle. You will loose power assist on brakes and steering but you will still be able to control the car.

The ratio of intelligence to litigation in this country is getting out of hand.
The journey is the destination.

Offline CAP1

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Re: Toyota brake question....
« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2010, 09:29:30 AM »
I have to agree with this 100%:

In the cases where shifting to n does nothing, its time to shut off the vehicle. You will loose power assist on brakes and steering but you will still be able to control the car.

The ratio of intelligence to litigation in this country is getting out of hand.

yea it is. i've not worked on a prius yet, but i'm sure there is some sort of emergency procedure for something like what's happening.
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Offline Skuzzy

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Re: Toyota brake question....
« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2010, 11:54:23 AM »
early ones still had throttle cables.

Yes, I know.  I have been corrected by 2 others in the thread already.  I should have worded the original response better.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Toyota brake question....
« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2010, 12:33:23 PM »
Yes, I know.  I have been corrected by 2 others in the thread already.  I should have worded the original response better.

yea......my apologies on that sir.....i should've read down further before i typed that........
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