Author Topic: Flaps and the F4U  (Read 709 times)

Offline F4UDOA

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Flaps and the F4U
« on: July 18, 2001, 10:53:00 PM »
Gents,

In light of the coming changes to the flap model of many AH fighters I would just like to ask this question.

How long is the virtual flight deck of the AH carriers? I still auger at least 50% of the time when taking off with a full load in an F4U-1D with 100% fuel 2 1k eggs and 8 rockets.

Takeoff run from the F4U pilots manual. Weights of materials from Americas Hundred Thousand

Max weight15,000lbs= 12,000 100% fuel/ammo+ 2 1,000lbs bombs + 8 rockets weighing 1,155lbs.

54inches MAP<==only
30 degrees of flap<==can use 50degrees for shorter run
25 knot headwind

Takeoff distance required====>700FT!!

This is the single best example of the Flaps not providing enough lift.

Anybody want to take a guess at how long the AH carrier deck is??

The lenght of a Midway class carrier in WW2 was 968FT. (The USS. Franklin)

Essex Class= 874 (Bunker Hill etc)

Enterpise, Hornet, Yorktown= 761Ft

Offline Citabria

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« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2001, 11:12:00 PM »
1 word about flaps being fixed...

fowler
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2001, 11:59:00 PM »
One thing to consider is that we don't start from the approach end of the deck. In other words, I don't think we can measure how much "runway available" we actually have.

I'd guess Pyro would have to tell us.

Additionally, I think the carrier is moving at more than 25 knots but I don't know if that Headwind effect is modeled into the takeoff portion. You know how you get that additional rate of climb at some altitudes? I never see that effect when becoming airborn off a carrier.

I'm not arguing anything for or against here, just making a few observations.

BTW, F4, I truly admire the way you ask for changes. Always with some data, ALWAYS polite and never in a "non-stop" constant manner.

<S>
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline flakbait

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Flaps and the F4U
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2001, 02:48:00 AM »
The carrier is an Essex-class (long hull) that moves at 33 knots. Flight deck length is listed as 888 feet for the long hull. I figure a takeoff run of 700 feet would be about right, perhaps a smidge more or less depending on deck crowding.

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-----------------------
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Put the P-61B in Aces High
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think God wants to hear from me right now.
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Offline niklas

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« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2001, 04:31:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad:
One thing to consider is that we don't start from the approach end of the deck. In other words, I don't think we can measure how much "runway available" we actually have.
of course you can. Go into H2H with a friend, let him slowly roll to the end of the runway and watch the distance in his icon until he "disappears"  :)

 
Quote
Additionally, I think the carrier is moving at more than 25 knots but I don't know if that Headwind effect is modeled into the takeoff portion.
watch your speed indicator when you spawn...

Offline Lephturn

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Flaps and the F4U
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2001, 09:06:00 AM »
We don't get a full roll.  To get a Hog off the deck fully loaded like that, first just touch your throttle so the auto-brakes disengage, and let the plane roll back.  Once you are almost to the end of the deck, then set your brakes, raise your flaps, throttle up, WEP, and let her go.  Yes I said raise the flaps.  :)  The drag is definately modelled, so don't start dropping the flaps until you have to... ie: as you pass the superstructure.  After that let her settle level, don't raise the nose... you'll make it, but not by much.  Make sure you raise your gear the instant you clear or you'll never make it.

But the question about lift from flaps is still a valid one.  Back in beta I did some tests... I think it's time to re-do them and see if we can quantify the lift from flaps.  What should extending flaps do... allow us to maintain level flight at a slower speed?  Is that a valid test?

Offline F4UDOA

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« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2001, 09:14:00 AM »
Thanks Toad<S>

I always look at the airspeed indicator before I take off. I also try to make sure that the ship is not making any abrupt maneuvers. However I augered three times in a row the other day and it really got me pissed so I did some offline testing. The Carriers at speed have 25MPH accross the deck during a standard takeoff. And your flaps if they are to work at all now have to be deployed at the last second or they will slow you down, and then only 2 notches seems to actually help. Keep in mind that a real carrier takeoff didn't require the pilot to give 100% power from the start. They fed the power in and still made the launch.

I think the current drag penalty for flaps is to high but also they are not producing anough lift noticed by the A/C that use flaps not stalling at the correct speeds.

The Carrier is simply the most frustrating.

Cit,

I think you will see a benifit to the low drag of the fowler when modeled however keep in mind that the P-38 at 17,000lbs did not have a very low stall speed even with flaps. Not bad but not that low. Around 85MPH CAS. Of course that should improve with lighter weights.

Offline F4UDOA

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« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2001, 09:46:00 AM »
Heya Lephturn<S>

We posted at the same time so I didn't see yours before I put my last one up.

Anyway yes that is a valid test. In most A/C flaps will lower the minimum flying speeds(F6F). In some A/C they can be used for maneuevering(F4U) and some the flaps where made for maneuvering(p-51, P-38 and sorry the NIK2).

In the case of the F4U ground run testing was very important and like most planes minimum ground run testing is listed in the Pilots operational manual which I have three of. One being P-47N, yes the P-47N!!. I got it at an Airshow recently.

P-47N
16,300lbs
54inches MAP
2800RPM
20 degrees flap
35knot(40mph) headwind
Takeoff run = 1625ft

So taking the stall speed of these A/C and then lowering it according to the CAS (Calibrated airspeed) chart in the flight manual should give you the stall with full flaps(power off usually). Then for partial flap deployment it is a little tricky but still very logical. It requires some calculation be done of the CL max with full flaps and devide the increase in lift by the number of notches of flap available to determine how much lift should be gained from each notch of flap. Then the correct stall becomes easy.

Anyway I'll get off my soapbox now.  :D

Offline batdog

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Flaps and the F4U
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2001, 10:03:00 AM »
So as far as the 38 and the f4 (fowlers)is concerned it will turn better, the stall will be better and the e retention from engaging the flaps will be better...? Sounds like a win win situation to me   :)
 Wow... any idea WHEN we can expect to see this newer version?

xBAT

[ 07-19-2001: Message edited by: batdog ]
Of course, I only see what he posts here and what he does in the MA.  I know virtually nothing about the man.  I think its important for people to realize that we don't really know squat about each other.... definately not enough to use words like "hate".

AKDejaVu

Offline whels

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« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2001, 10:09:00 AM »
1 thing alos is we dont get the benifit of turning the CV into the wind, so we ae missing 10 to 20 knots of lift speed there also.

F4UDOA what did they do for plane that didnt get the whole deck to run on, some planes only got half or less to run on when the were full of planes for missions.


whels
 
Quote
Originally posted by F4UDOA:
Gents,

In light of the coming changes to the flap model of many AH fighters I would just like to ask this question.

How long is the virtual flight deck of the AH carriers? I still auger at least 50% of the time when taking off with a full load in an F4U-1D with 100% fuel 2 1k eggs and 8 rockets.

Takeoff run from the F4U pilots manual. Weights of materials from Americas Hundred Thousand

Max weight15,000lbs= 12,000 100% fuel/ammo+ 2 1,000lbs bombs + 8 rockets weighing 1,155lbs.

54inches MAP<==only
30 degrees of flap<==can use 50degrees for shorter run
25 knot headwind

Takeoff distance required====>700FT!!

This is the single best example of the Flaps not providing enough lift.

Anybody want to take a guess at how long the AH carrier deck is??

The lenght of a Midway class carrier in WW2 was 968FT. (The USS. Franklin)

Essex Class= 874 (Bunker Hill etc)

Enterpise, Hornet, Yorktown= 761Ft

Offline whels

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Flaps and the F4U
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2001, 10:15:00 AM »
i rarely auger F4U with 100 fuel 2 1ks and rocks loaded. i can back up like Leph says but usually idont. i pop up, hit shift + for 100% trottle, P for wep. and as i get to the end of the deck i pop 1 notch flap, asi leave the deck i very lightly pull back on stick and raise gear imediaely.i pul on stick just enough to keep it from hitting the
water which it will do if u let autotakeoff
do it all.

whels
 
Quote
Originally posted by F4UDOA:
Thanks Toad<S>

I always look at the airspeed indicator before I take off. I also try to make sure that the ship is not making any abrupt maneuvers. However I augered three times in a row the other day and it really got me pissed so I did some offline testing. The Carriers at speed have 25MPH accross the deck during a standard takeoff. And your flaps if they are to work at all now have to be deployed at the last second or they will slow you down, and then only 2 notches seems to actually help. Keep in mind that a real carrier takeoff didn't require the pilot to give 100% power from the start. They fed the power in and still made the launch.

I think the current drag penalty for flaps is to high but also they are not producing anough lift noticed by the A/C that use flaps not stalling at the correct speeds.

The Carrier is simply the most frustrating.

Cit,

I think you will see a benifit to the low drag of the fowler when modeled however keep in mind that the P-38 at 17,000lbs did not have a very low stall speed even with flaps. Not bad but not that low. Around 85MPH CAS. Of course that should improve with lighter weights.

Offline F4UDOA

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« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2001, 01:15:00 PM »
Whels,

Actually you do get the benifit of the headwind. Check you speedometer before takeoff. You will have about 25mph indicated.

I am sure there are techniques to get you off of the deck, however my reason for posting is that there shouldn't be a need for a special trick. It is what the A/C was meant to do and did very well with the use of flaps.

Batdog,

I think you will see marked improvement in the P-38 and it's use in the MA. But you asked a very good question. When is this fix going to get here??

Pyro?

Offline whels

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« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2001, 01:28:00 PM »
F4UDOA,

what i mean is, we are missing the exta wind from headwind above the normal ships speed.
In RL not only did they have the 20 or knots of ship speed but also would turn into the wind for launch for the extra wind speed also
and we dont get that in AH.

whels
 
Quote
Originally posted by F4UDOA:
Whels,

Actually you do get the benifit of the headwind. Check you speedometer before takeoff. You will have about 25mph indicated.

I am sure there are techniques to get you off of the deck, however my reason for posting is that there shouldn't be a need for a special trick. It is what the A/C was meant to do and did very well with the use of flaps.

Batdog,

I think you will see marked improvement in the P-38 and it's use in the MA. But you asked a very good question. When is this fix going to get here??

Pyro?

Offline Citabria

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« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2001, 01:42:00 PM »
you can get the hog off every time by using full flaps even without wep....

snatch the gear up as soon as you get off the deck... after all the gear is used as an air brake too right?  :)
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Offline F4UDOA

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« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2001, 09:42:00 AM »
Cit,

You take 100% fuel, 2 1K bombs and 8 Rockets and I gaurentee you won't make it off the deck. WEP or not. The flaps make it impossible to get enough speed to take off.

Kind of the exact opposite of what is supposed to happen ya know   :)

BTW I do take the gear up ASAP.