Author Topic: How to fight P-51's, tsjhokk and N1K's in 190's?  (Read 1089 times)

Offline StSanta

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How to fight P-51's, tsjhokk and N1K's in 190's?
« on: September 29, 2000, 02:29:00 AM »
Well, a bit of a rethorical question, but with some seriousness to it  .

With alt; no problem. B&Z til yer almost equal e, then disengange.

Co alt: merge, try to get nose to nose situation, avoid HO, run like hell, unless yer very low; then you can try to outclimb the P-51. Don't count on this to be a saving maneuver though. When 51 catches you, outscissor him, go nose to nose, run like hell. Repeat til dead or close to friendlies.

Alt disadvantage: Go for HO, then run.

The A5 has very little working for it against the P-51 - it has a higher roll rate at medium speeds, and a higher initial turn rate, dunno about acceleration, and climbs a bit better at low altitudes. The P-51 is considerably faster, has better high speed handling, and with flaps deployed, it outturns the A5; push the A5 and its wicked stall speeds characteristics will roll ya over towards the deck. Not sure about medium speed turn performance.

Reversing on a 51 is very difficult - you might produce a great scissors, but the 51 will either just leave you in the dust, or pop some flaps and spiral dive turn and will lose you. No go there.

With the N1K, that one can do a 180 turn and catch ya on the zoom, so make sure you hae a considerable amount of speed more before you try it. It'll easily outtrun you, and it'll defeat any snapshots by a hard break with relatively little e loss. Follow that turn for a snapshot for too long, and his 180 turn will leave him with enough e to catch you.

Situations against 4UC's are similar to the 51's - except the tsjhokk can defeat you in a turn fight much more easily.

Basically, these three planes are difficult to fight if you're in a 190. For me, the key has been teamwork and RW coordination (was fun yesterday kirin, those N1K's and 51's just kept coming  ).

Of course, I won't reveal my secret fighting tactics against these planes (even if I had such  ), but, I'd welcome input. Bot from 190 drivers but also from others more familiar with the weaknesses of allied planes.  .



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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"

Offline Torque

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How to fight P-51's, tsjhokk and N1K's in 190's?
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2000, 02:34:00 AM »
Big Blue keeeeels all LW weebles!!!

Offline mauser

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How to fight P-51's, tsjhokk and N1K's in 190's?
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2000, 03:52:00 AM »
I'm no expert in flying either of the 190's, but I find  your experiences to be similar to mine StSanta. If co-alt with any of them, or lower, try my best to minimize separation at the merge but yet avoid the HO if they take it (and about 90% will). I try to lead zoom (is that the correct term?) and get them in front of my wingline quickly as they go past me. From there, I see what the con does. For the most part, this only works sometimes on B&Z aircraft. Nikis will just pull hard and force a merge when I'm still accelerating from the first merge. If that occurs, I just forget about it and try to run. Usually doesn't work. I don't think the 190 was really meant to fight that way against opponents like those, but when some of the better pilots remark that they can dogfight in the 190's, I'm in awe and would love to see films.

mauser

Offline Fishu

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How to fight P-51's, tsjhokk and N1K's in 190's?
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2000, 03:56:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Torque:
Big Blue keeeeels all LW weebles!!!  

No no, it goes like this:
"Big HTC keeeeels all LW weebles!!!   "

Offline Hristo

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How to fight P-51's, tsjhokk and N1K's in 190's?
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2000, 04:50:00 AM »
Fishu, you rock  

Offline Karnak

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How to fight P-51's, tsjhokk and N1K's in 190's?
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2000, 09:53:00 AM »
Boy, I sure hope you guys get your Fw190D-9 with MW50 soon.

This whole gripe line is getting REALLY old.

Sisu
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Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline StSanta

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How to fight P-51's, tsjhokk and N1K's in 190's?
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2000, 10:14:00 AM »
Karnak, heh.

But seriously, have you gfound something else than me in 190 vs 51/N1k/f4U-C?

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funked

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How to fight P-51's, tsjhokk and N1K's in 190's?
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2000, 10:15:00 AM »
Just do what the real 190's did against Mustangs.  Bail out as soon as they start firing, or go down in flames.    

Seriously, your best hope against a 51 is to make it a vertical fight.  You have a better thrust to weight ratio, so use it.  A looping battle is better for you than a flat turning battle.

Against a N1K2 you have a significant speed advantage unless you are on the deck in an A-5.  It's not much but it's usable.

F4U is the hardest matchup, because everything the 190 can do, the F4U can do better.  190 climbs better is all.  Against F4U you need an altitude advantage, or you need the F4U to make a mistake.  Prayer wouldn't hurt.    


[This message has been edited by funked (edited 09-29-2000).]

Offline Tac

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How to fight P-51's, tsjhokk and N1K's in 190's?
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2000, 10:50:00 AM »
Go vertical.  A pony will die in the vertical unless it has a lot of E.

A tactic i've found usefull in the 190 now is to "baffle" the other guy using the 190's roll rate.

Im not sure how to explain it... the main idea is to keep the 190 below the pony's nose (below gunsight) using is roll rate to bank the plane and pull up on the stick. At some point the pony will lose sight of 190 (since 190 are constantly banking and pulling up on the stick.. and hopefully the pony wont be able to roll with you, thus 190 can actually be turning right when the pony is still rolling to the left when it tried to follow the 190's roll to the left..and he wont see that because the 190 is below the nose) and will not be able to know where the 190 is.. thats when it will either pull up or fly level for a while.. that's the 190 has the chance of either escaping or getting on the pony's 6.

I'll try to get a film of it.

[This message has been edited by Tac (edited 09-29-2000).]

Offline minus

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How to fight P-51's, tsjhokk and N1K's in 190's?
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2000, 11:13:00 AM »
 i em a 190 dweb  , pony not scare me at all only the problem  he can run i cant run
 vertical scisor is well against ponys but any other lop or turn is nonsens for 190, roll  and scisor vertical horizontal if owershot u folow but be ready for another scisors the only way i thing


Nath-BDP

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How to fight P-51's, tsjhokk and N1K's in 190's?
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2000, 11:52:00 AM »
Against niks I use the 190s superior dive and high speed control superiority to win, if the pilot is stupid enough to follow me into one.

P51s usually run after I get the advantage on them using skill, so i cant realy comment on that.

F4Us just plain cant climb... after the merge you can easily rope them.

this is a nice film I took 2 days ago, note that I have 4x 20mm if I had only 2 they would prolly both be dead.

Overall, I use the A8s dive, zoom, and reverse capability to win, and my skill. ;p
 http://pobox2.zyan.com/~nath/2vs1a8f4.ahf

Oh, and I never run from a fight, you don't learn from running.

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"Herzas"

[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 09-29-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 09-29-2000).]

Offline Karnak

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How to fight P-51's, tsjhokk and N1K's in 190's?
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2000, 12:17:00 PM »
StSanta,
I was being honest.  I really do hope you guys get the Fw190D-9 with MW50 soon and I really am tired of hearing this complaint line.  I'll try the Fw190D-9 when it shows up, but I won't fly it much.  Fw's just aren't my cup of tea, if I'm going to grab a German kite the 109 suits me better.

As for your question, no I don't have any suggestions for you.  I don't fly the Fw190, P-51D or F4U-1C and only occasionally fly the N1K2.  The only time that I've met an Fw190 when I was flying the N1K2, you were the guy that got me (there were two 190s, yours and another guy, don't know who but I blew half of his wing off, thought he was a goner and turned to avoid becoming a snack for whoever was coming up behind me, but I never got a kill for him and I didn't see him in that fight again).

Yes, the N1K2 is VERY good, especially down low where most of the fighting seems to happen now.  Down there amid all of the oxogen the 80 octane fuel isn't much of a disadvantage and its engine is churning out nearly 2000hp.  Get it up into thin air though and it gasps for breath.  Above 10K it falls off fast, above 20k it wallows like a pig.

I think 1.04 was VERY good to the N1K2 for two different reasons:

A)  Energy bleeding off too fast was fixed.  This was more of a boon to aircraft like the N1K2 that live and die by the turn than it was to aircraft like the Bf109G-10 which live and die on the Boom and Zoom.
B)  The Icon range was reduced.  This had the effect of bringing the fights down lower where the N1K2 has plenty of oxogen to drink and thus is VERY competitive in speed and climb, let alone turning.

The Fw190D-9 won't affect point A, but it will help quite a bit with point B, N1K2 does 345 on the deck and Fw190D-9 with MW50 does 380.

Good luck on getting your equalizer.

Sisu
-Karnak

[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 09-29-2000).]
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Nath-BDP

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How to fight P-51's, tsjhokk and N1K's in 190's?
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2000, 12:35:00 PM »
Nah, I'd rather not have the D9 actually... it will bring more 'non-hardcore LW' to it. Similar to what happened with the A5. ;p

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Stab/Jagdgeschwader 77
"Herzas"

[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 09-29-2000).]

Offline Karnak

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How to fight P-51's, tsjhokk and N1K's in 190's?
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2000, 12:45:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Nath-BDP:
Nah, I'd rather not have the D9 actually... it will bring more 'non-hardcore LW' to it

Nath-BDP, you are one elitist bastard, aren't you?  

<shaking head and sighing>

Sisu
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Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Citabria

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How to fight P-51's, tsjhokk and N1K's in 190's?
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2000, 02:22:00 PM »
if i see a lot of chogs up i launch in an N1k2 and kill them all even if they are 10k above me  

the n1k2 is damned uber but I have no sympathy for chog dweebs who were ex 190a5 dweebs flying the latest greatest dweeb wagon

in fact I actively look for chogs when in an N1k2 and I always find a lot of them
Fester was my in game name until September 2013