Author Topic: niklas look at this. Prop's near Mach 1  (Read 392 times)

Offline Jimdandy

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niklas look at this. Prop's near Mach 1
« on: February 16, 2001, 08:45:00 AM »
Damn niklas even as rusty as I'm I can still pull one out of my a..     I was right about the efficiency of the prop near M1. Here is a NACA study on the subject. It is looking at prop tip speeds as we had talked about a while back.
 http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1950/naca-report-999/

It even explains some of the things you were seeing with the prop data. It explains why they went to the wide bladed props. It appears they are able to play with the shape of the prop and get higher critcal Mach numbers.

[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 02-16-2001).]

Offline Widewing

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niklas look at this. Prop's near Mach 1
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2001, 09:18:00 AM »
Jimdandy,

You might interested in this story about supersonic (actually, transonic) props.

 http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Fisher.html

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Jimdandy

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niklas look at this. Prop's near Mach 1
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2001, 10:29:00 AM »
Damn it Widewing thank you. I've been trying to tell these people that YOU CAN'T EXCEED THE SPEED OF SOUND WITH A PROP. They had me convinced that in a dive you could. Well I'm no Aerodynamic engineer so I at least knew it wouldn't pull itself past Mach 1 in level flight. Now it turns out I was right about it all along! It wont do it in a dive either! Yeah! LOL!     I can still remember some of my compressible flow classes. LOL!     I begin to think I've forgotten it all sometimes. I don't know that maybe in the resent past that someone hasn't figured out how to do it but from what I know this article is still true. Thanks again Widewing.    

PS I remember back in the late 80's discussing this with my physics teacher because I brought in some article on a pusher prop plane that someone was designing to try to break the speed of sound with. He just said "...Well he wont do it because..." of all the reasons listed in both these articles. This guy was no average Physicist either. He had been around and had worked on some of these projects, including the F-104. Once a week he would take his Lear (spelling?) Jet to play golf in Pebble Beach. He is a real nice guy and was always willing to talk about anything and tell you when he didn't know. He had the greatest stories about when he was an intern working on the Mercury program and what the astronauts were really like. I loved his stories about when he was first taking physics and was trying to explain to his wife and daughter about pressure and point loading. So to give them an example he had his daughter get in there VW bug and drive it onto his foot to show that the weight would be distributed enough that it wouldn't hurt. The whole time his wife is saying "...Don't do this..." Well he screwed up and was off by a factor of ten on his weights. His daughter was just learning to drive and got the car onto his foot and then killed the engine and had a hell of a time getting it off. LOL!!! One of those guys that will admit he's not perfect even though he is a great Physicist.    

[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 02-16-2001).]

Offline Sundog

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niklas look at this. Prop's near Mach 1
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2001, 11:03:00 AM »
Don't forget the Republic F-84(H?) with the transonic propellor whose natural frequency's (Well one of the frequencys) was at the right wavelength to make everyone nauseous!..hehe

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Offline Karnak

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niklas look at this. Prop's near Mach 1
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2001, 11:13:00 AM »
The fastest dive that I am aware of by a WWII era aircraft was done by a Spitfire MkXVIII.  It reached a speed of .92 mach.

The pilot was testing a high altitde preasurization system when it failed, he initiated an emergency dive in order to get to breathable air.  Shortly after beginning the dive, he lost control of the aircraft.  Control was regained at an altitude of less than 5,000ft.  During the dive, the pilot observed the air going over the wing take on the "misty" look of supersonic speeds.  It is probable that the top surface of the wing broke the sound barrier in relation to the air traveling over it.  After regaining control, the pilot returned to base.  After landing, the Spitfire was examined and judged flight ready.

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[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 02-16-2001).]
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Offline Jimdandy

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niklas look at this. Prop's near Mach 1
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2001, 11:41:00 AM »
Yep he was seeing a shock wave form on his wing. The trans sonic region is roughly 0.8M-1.2M. He was seeing compressibility in action. It is what happens to any of these planes in a high speed dive in the trans sonic region. The shock waves will form and detach and reform and that is the buffeting. The shape of the wing plays a very important part in the speed at which it begins to onset. The plane itself never went past M1 but the air in local areas of the wing did that's for sure.

Offline Jimdandy

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niklas look at this. Prop's near Mach 1
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2001, 09:45:00 PM »
Dang it niklas haven't you been on today.  

Offline Jekyll

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niklas look at this. Prop's near Mach 1
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2001, 11:31:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak:
The fastest dive that I am aware of by a WWII era aircraft was done by a Spitfire MkXVIII.  It reached a speed of .92 mach.

The pilot was testing a high altitde preasurization system when it failed, he initiated an emergency dive in order to get to breathable air.  Shortly after beginning the dive, he lost control of the aircraft.  Control was regained at an altitude of less than 5,000ft.  During the dive, the pilot observed the air going over the wing take on the "misty" look of supersonic speeds.  It is probable that the top surface of the wing broke the sound barrier in relation to the air traveling over it.  After regaining control, the pilot returned to base.  After landing, the Spitfire was examined and judged flight ready.


You sure about it being flight ready?    Here's a quote from an eyewitness.

"To underline the remarkability of the Spitfire design, it is still on record as having achieved the fastest true airspeed ever reached by a piston-engined airplane.  On April 27, 1944, a fully imstrumented PR. XI was dived by an RAE test pilot to a true Mach number of 0.91, but it lost its propeller and reduction gear in the process.  The pilot still managed to execute a successful wheels-down landing on Farnborough airfield, in spite of the windscreen's and canopy's covering of black oil.

This hitoric flight was made by Squadron Leader AF Martindale, with whom I had previously served and whom I eventually succeeded as CO of high-speed flight.  He was a tall, powerfully-built man, and this probably contributed to his survival, as he was pulling a stick force of well over 100 pounds when the propeller detached itself, thus subjecting the Spitfire to 11G.

I was on the airfield when the airplane touched down, and as I approached it, I could hardly believe my eyes, for there was a slight gap at the leading edge of each wing root, giving mini sweepback to the wings."



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Offline Karnak

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niklas look at this. Prop's near Mach 1
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2001, 12:34:00 PM »
Jekyll,

Hmm, your's seems to be a different account, or it was simply poorly related too me.  What I posted was what I had been told.

In either case, both stories certainly contradict those people who claim that the Spitfire would break up if it went faster than 550.  The Spit in your account was certainly in bad shape, but it had dived to .91 mach and then pulled 11Gs without shedding its wings.

Spitfires were NOT wing shedders.  

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For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
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Offline juzz

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niklas look at this. Prop's near Mach 1
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2001, 01:25:00 PM »
Yes they were - at +13Gs.  

Offline Jimdandy

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niklas look at this. Prop's near Mach 1
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
niklas you seen this one yet?

Offline niklas

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niklas look at this. Prop's near Mach 1
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2001, 02:56:00 PM »
Hi Jimdandy- did you get nervous?   You see, some poeple donīt stay every day at home and check 5 times the day a forum   .

thx for the link. I had a quick look at it. It basically seems to confirm my opinion.


It really looks like that for some speed tests in the past the propeller and/or the prop gear ratio was changed, optimized for topspeed.

niklas

[This message has been edited by niklas (edited 02-18-2001).]

Offline Jimdandy

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niklas look at this. Prop's near Mach 1
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2001, 05:49:00 PM »
Yes I think so. It confirms what I had thought too. I'm glad you liked it.   <S>