Author Topic: Pacific  (Read 5753 times)

Offline Delirium

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Re: Pacific
« Reply #165 on: March 21, 2010, 02:06:03 PM »
If I was Commander in Chief, I would of used the bomb without question, every time for many reasons.

1. Would it save American lives? Yes, as President you are responsible for the military and their lives.

2. Would it demonstrate to the Russians to conclude the war, rather than continue it? Yes, Russia would be much less willing to attempt to gobble up Western Europe after the Allies were shipped home.

3. Would it save Japanese lives? Yes, far more Japanese lives would of been lost (civilian and military) if an invasion occurred. If you need proof of that, watch the civilians jumping off the cliffs in Saipan and the military flying one way trips to our fleets in everything from aircraft without landing gear and rockets with a bomb in front of them (Ohka). Heck, they didn't even surrender after the first bomb was dropped, do you think they would have surrendered to an invasion fleet?

Frankly, whoever says they would not drop it is kidding themselves and not putting themselves in Truman's shoes.

edit: I'm not a hawk, I hate nuclear weapons and the very threat they continue to pose today, especially from smaller devices in the hands of rogue states/terrorist groups.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2010, 02:08:44 PM by Delirium »
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Offline MORAY37

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Re: Pacific
« Reply #166 on: March 21, 2010, 02:14:46 PM »
The thing is what we did by dropping the bombs was to end the war quickly and try and avoid more American soldiers from losing their lives, what the Japanese did to our P.O.W's was just plain evil and sadistic, they forced them to work themselves to death, starved them, and did medical experiments on them, if you ask me that shows who the real inhuman people were, and that was the point I was making about why it made me angry when that guy said that about us.

People do what they do....and it isn't confined or directed at one race or another.  Any time one group of people fancies themselves "better" than another group, the door is opened for immoral behavior, something all sides participated in during WW2.  This isn't up for argument or discussion, all sides committed atrocities.  

By making Japanese atrocities the comparison for American A-Bomb drop, you therefore put each on equal footing.  

That is my point.

The only moral point we may engage in would be the American push for the Nuremberg Trials when all other allied powers were pushing for summary execution without trial of officers suspected in the planning of and carrying out of said atrocities. IMO, that was the highest point of morality found throughout the entire war, and it's criminal we have forgotten it.
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Offline skribetm

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Re: Pacific
« Reply #167 on: March 21, 2010, 02:57:48 PM »
I'll answer with a question.

Would the civilians of Japan start fighting as well?

to the last man, woman and child.
dropping the a-bomb was the right decision. twice.

should've also used the bomb on beijing and pyongyang, as macarthur wanted.
that general right there has real marbles as big as the moon. :rock :rock :rock

also, the fire-bombing of tokyo and other cities killed more civilians than the two a-bombs combined.

Offline Irwink!

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Re: Pacific
« Reply #168 on: March 21, 2010, 03:20:21 PM »
The estimates for military losses were based on events like Palau, Iwo and Okinawa, while civilian estimates were somewhat estimated from the experience of Okinava. All in all, the bulk of the Japanese armed forces would be estimated as casualties, added by some 4-5 million civilians. Allied casualties around 1.5 millions.
These are from the top of my head, but I'd say they were careful.

Dead is dead, whether targeted or otherwise.

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Pacific
« Reply #169 on: March 21, 2010, 03:35:14 PM »


Not worth my time.  I simply don't agree that the SU-27s is the same crappy Russian engineering as the Mig-25 and I proved it. 


No, you didn't prove it at all.  Just like you didn't prove how technogically advanced the Germans were over the Allies during World War II.  That one blew up in your face when you used the fact that the US Army still had a couple of cavalry units at the start of the war as proof the Germans were more advanced.

ack-ack
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Offline MORAY37

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Re: Pacific
« Reply #170 on: March 21, 2010, 04:21:29 PM »
No, you didn't prove it at all.  Just like you didn't prove how technogically advanced the Germans were over the Allies during World War II.  That one blew up in your face when you used the fact that the US Army still had a couple of cavalry units at the start of the war as proof the Germans were more advanced.

ack-ack

No, the point was that the US was still reliant upon cavalry units for attacking, in an offensive role.  The Germans had transitioned to an armored spearhead, while we were attempting to catch up.  German horse based units were utilized in mobility and transportation roles.

Apparently you wish to look directly past the facts.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Pacific
« Reply #171 on: March 21, 2010, 05:04:06 PM »
No, the point was that the US was still reliant upon cavalry units for attacking, in an offensive role.  The Germans had transitioned to an armored spearhead, while we were attempting to catch up.  German horse based units were utilized in mobility and transportation roles.

Apparently you wish to look directly past the facts.

If I was you, you should be the one to look up the facts.  Not only did the German army use horses for most transportation needs throughout the entire war, they also fielded cavalry units throughout the entire war.

Where do I begin?  The German army used cavalry units from the beginning of the war until their surrender in 1945.  Below is a list of the German cavalry units.

1st Cavalry Division (later 24th Panzer Division)
3rd Cavalry Division
4th Cavalry Division
Cossack Cavalry Division (unit was transferred to the Waffen-SS, where it was split to form the 1st & 2nd Cossack Cavalry Divisions as part of the XV SS Cossack Cavalry Corps)

Most remember stories of the famous cavalry charges by the Polish army during the Invasion of Poland, but what is not as well known are the two cavalry charges by the German army.

Królewskie Forests near town Krzynowłoga Mała - 01.09 - Polish - German cavalry horse fierce skirmish - German cavalry horse charge with sabres:

Small Polish patrol from 11th Leggionary Ulan Regiment (Mazowiecka Cavalry Brigade) under command of lieutenant Wladislaw Kossakowski during the reconessaince mission, met small German cavalry patrol from 1st Cavalry Brigade. Kossakowski decided to start a battle - close combat with sabres and probably lances on Polish side (this was one of a few incidents during the campaign, when Polish cavalry used lances), and with sabres on German side.

Kossakowski wrote:

"At the end of our march, in the edge of small forest clearing, we saw small German cavalry unit. They didn't see us, but their positions were crossing the road and blocking our march direction. I asked other officers - are we charging? As the answer, I heard noice of sabres being pulled out from sheaths. We made a pre-charge formation and charged towards them from the forest, screaming - Hurray! The shock tactic was succesfull, but - what surprised us - this time German cavalry didn't panic or withdraw, but re-charged us using sabres - also screaming Hurray! and occasionally - Heil Hitler! - two brave charging cavalry units, screaming, brandishing with sabres and bending down in saddles, were going to head-on collision! After few seconds, we reached them and they reached us. Two cavalry formations crushed in one battle - but our impetus was greater. In fact, both formations just passed each other - but there were casualties on both sides. I remember, that corporal Juckiewicz stuffed a German cavalryman with his lance - German soldier just moaned and died. After this short but fierce and bloody combat, we galloped in our way and those of Germans who survived - galloped in their way. We were all unconcsious from emotions and excitement, but kept riding - after few minutes we reached our infantry with MGs and mortars positions - great relief. Finally, our patrol joined our regiment in the late evening"

"Charge by Krasnobród - 23.09.1939:

2nd Polish cavalry squadron (from 25th Cavalry Regiment) is attacking (in foot formation) German infantry - hand granades, rifles and MGs, together with artillery support (9th Horse Artillery Command) force German infantry to withdraw in great mess. German chaotic and fast withdrawal makes an opportunity to make a cavalry charge:

Other Polish cavalry unit (1st squadron under command of lieutenant Tadeusz Gerlecki) is charging and chasing panicked German Infantry which is now running away, crushed and completely disorganized - one squadron of German heavy "Eastern Prussian" cavalry with strong, heavy horses, charge with sabres towards Polish cavalry, trying to rescue rests of defeated German Infantry:

"It was amazing view - against Polish ulans charged German cavalry units - Polish squadron - charging in a single line formation - with lances directed towards Germans, was closing to the charging enemy. Enemy cavalry was charging with sabres in chaotic, messy formation. Finally, units striked each other. Polish cavalry - well disciplined, better trained for horse fighting and supported by Polish 9th Horse Artillery Command - crushed Germans. Polish sabres together with Polish artillery fire, crushed Prussians - German cavalry suffered heavy losses."

Prussian cavalry was also charging against 2nd squadron positions, which was defending in foot formation with MGs and rifles - German charge was rejected (mainly because of Polish artillery support and MGs fire) with quite heavy losses for them. But there is no doubt, that German cavalry charge gave the minute of peace to the Infantry, and help in its withdrawal, giving an opportunity to rest for a few minutes without being attacked, decrease panic, and - partially - regroup.

Polish cavalry attack supported infantry, and inficted on re-taking the city of Krasnobród from German hands, and capturing the headquarters & staff of German 8. Infanterie-Division together with many divisional commanders and staff officers. "

There was also a Waffen-SS cavalry division, the 8th SS Cavalry Division Florian Geyer.
Insignia of the 8th SS Cavalry Division
(Image removed from quote.)

German soldier of the 3rd Cavalry Division adjusting the bridle on his horse.
(Image removed from quote.)

Soldiers of the 8th SS Cavalry on the Eastern Front.
(Image removed from quote.)

Members of the 8th SS Cavalry crossing a stream in Russia.
(Image removed from quote.)

2nd Cossack Cavalry troop forming up prior to a charge.
(Image removed from quote.)

In contrast, by the beginning of the war the US Army was already disbanding their horse cavalry units and reorganizing them as mechanized units and the last US cavalry charge took place in 1942 in the Philippines.  


So, you were saying?


ack-ack

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Offline Die Hard

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Re: Pacific
« Reply #172 on: March 21, 2010, 05:20:48 PM »
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

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Offline trax1

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Offline Kermit de frog

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Re: Pacific
« Reply #174 on: March 21, 2010, 05:38:19 PM »
to the last man, woman and child.
dropping the a-bomb was the right decision. twice.

should've also used the bomb on beijing and pyongyang, as macarthur wanted.
that general right there has real marbles as big as the moon. :rock :rock :rock

also, the fire-bombing of tokyo and other cities killed more civilians than the two a-bombs combined.


British civilians were told to do the same.  Does that make the blitz bombing ok?
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Offline MORAY37

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Re: Pacific
« Reply #175 on: March 21, 2010, 06:28:09 PM »

British civilians were told to do the same.  Does that make the blitz bombing ok?

History (and the inherent morality contained) is always written by the victors.
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Offline Widewing

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Re: Pacific
« Reply #176 on: March 21, 2010, 07:52:43 PM »
History (and the inherent morality contained) is always written by the victors.

Sometimes, when the loser writes history you get the kind of nonsense shown here...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/11/AR2008111100952.html



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Widewing
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Offline Grayeagle

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Re: Pacific
« Reply #177 on: March 21, 2010, 08:00:48 PM »
Yassir .. it was all just a big misunderstanding.

The Japs meant to destroy the US Fleet ..and take what they wanted.
They just had no idea we'd be so pissed off about it.

Sucked to be them, eh?

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Offline DREDIOCK

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Re: Pacific
« Reply #178 on: March 21, 2010, 08:26:12 PM »
Two wrongs never make a right.

I agree the dropping of the atomic bombs saved uniformed military lives..... but at the cost of 300,000 civilians.


Damn shame. Tough teet.

I have yet to personally meet a WWII vet that actually fought thought or thinks dropping the bombs on Japan was a bad idea.
Considering those were the guys that would have had to bleed and die in an invasion on the Japaneese homeland. I trust their opinion more then I do anyone from today.

Secondly I am a proponent of total war. If you are going to have a war against a country. You have the war against the entire country. You make the experience of war so terrible that the country in its entirety no longer want to fight.
None of this P footing around crap that we do now.

Keeping my guys alive is far more important then keeping your guys alive. And if that means causing a city to cease to exist rather then taking it building by building. so be it.

Offer terms. Then if the terms are refused. Eliminate it
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Offline trax1

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Re: Pacific
« Reply #179 on: March 21, 2010, 09:26:42 PM »
Damn shame. Tough teet.

I have yet to personally meet a WWII vet that actually fought thought or thinks dropping the bombs on Japan was a bad idea.
Considering those were the guys that would have had to bleed and die in an invasion on the Japaneese homeland. I trust their opinion more then I do anyone from today.

Yeah I met a guy who was an Indy survivor and I know he was extremely proud that he was a part of delivering the bomb that ended the war.
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