Author Topic: Bombers are not tough enough: A fighter's perspective. (Read 1006 times)

Karnak · « **Reply #15 on:** October 02, 2000, 10:22:00 PM »

Tac,
The tests were done using a P-38. Note my post immediately above yours.

Hey Citabria,
I don't think I am whining. I'm the one shooting them, not the one being shot.

They're just too easy to kill. Its almost like a free kill.

Sisu
-Karnak

[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 10-02-2000).]

gatt · « **Reply #16 on:** October 03, 2000, 01:30:00 AM »

2 things: 1 laser hispano, 4 laser .50's

Sorry couldnt resist

Fishu · « **Reply #17 on:** October 03, 2000, 02:23:00 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Pongo:
Its your teqnique.
The wingtips of bombers are far more vulnerable then rest of the AC, and when you focus on the wingtip you are not giving the gunners as good a shot at you.
I dont know if that is realistic. Also. The two hispanos on a spit are very effective guns.

Bit too effective guns

RAM · « **Reply #18 on:** October 03, 2000, 05:53:00 AM »

If it serves for any purpose, then I'll tell that if bombers are weak then I am Frank Sinatra.

Yesterday night I flew a 190A5 with Bikekil as observer. I saw a low bomber and did a lateral approach. I fired only cannons.

got the right wing LIGHTED UP. I mean LIGHTED UP. I spent some 150 rounds in the bomber, estimated that more than the half of the burst landed on the B17. NO, I repeat NO effect. At all. Zero.

Turned back, latteral approach with a little delay (I was in his 3.5 position or so). I lighted his fusselage, and the wing again. He got a fuel leak. I got 3 pings, and my wing went kaboom.Bike and me were ashtounded . that B17 had survived MORE THAN ONE HUNDRED 20MM ROUNDS!

This has only two phrases (again):
1-MAUSERS SUCK, for HEAVEN'S SAKE, THIS GUN WAS USED TO KILL BOMBERS!
2-HISPANOS are turbolazers. and Bomber's 50 cals are like lazer cannons.

THis is getting old...TOO old...

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 10-03-2000).]

Vermillion · « **Reply #19 on:** October 03, 2000, 07:13:00 AM »

Karnak try that in a MG only aircraft or an aircraft like the Yak or any 109 with only a a single (non Hispano) 20mm with small ammo load.

Anything with hispano's eats up the enemy.

I am constantly amazed at how well the Spitfire is in "bomber busting".

Well, I guess they don't call this game "Cannon Birds" for nothing.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

gatt · « **Reply #20 on:** October 03, 2000, 07:25:00 AM »

I find those long shot by buff gunners very strange. Especially long (I mean more than 500-600yds) deflection shots that cut wings off from attackers aircraft. This is an high price to pay to have buffs in arena. Indeed.

Karnak · « **Reply #21 on:** October 03, 2000, 09:47:00 AM »

I have done it with non-hispano armed aircraft. I've done it with non-cannon aremed aircraft. One of my posts in this thread mentions the need to reduce Hispano damage against bombers. Please stop with the hispano talk. It doesn't explain the problem.

The example I used was with a Spit, which is my normal ride. It was not intended to mean that I had only done it with Spits.

Nikis and P-47s have no trouble either. Bf109G-10s with a 30mm cannon have no trouble.

The wings on bombers are just WAY too weak.

Sisu
-Karnak

RAM · « **Reply #22 on:** October 03, 2000, 09:53:00 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak:

The wings on bombers are just WAY too weak.

Sisu
-Karnak

Then explain how one of them supported at least 75 direct hits of 20mm, please.

Remember that I saw it, but Bikekil was too in my cockpit, we both saw it.

RAM · « **Reply #23 on:** October 03, 2000, 09:54:00 AM »

and dont start telling "connection" things. Mine was smooth, both in Ping plotter and in AH's connection tester.

And,for sure, he had no connections problem to break my wing.

75 rounds of 20mm. Explanations, please?

Karnak · « **Reply #24 on:** October 03, 2000, 10:07:00 AM »

RAM,
I don't know what to say. I keep having them pop off after 10 to 20 hits regardless of what I am flying.

I'd have to see your film to say anything else.

Sisu
-Karnak

Vermillion · « **Reply #25 on:** October 03, 2000, 10:10:00 AM »

Again Karnak, I am not turning it into a "anti-hispano" thread. I am pointing out that you conducting your tests with cannon armed aircraft.

G10 w/30mm=BFG specifically designed to kill bombers.
P47 = x8 .50s
N1K2's = x4 20mm cannons.

Go conduct your test (with a gunner at the controls actively trying to fight you off) with the Yak-9U, or the G10 with a single 20mm, or the C.202, or the P51 with x4 .50s.

I will do it with you in the TA tonight if you wish and we can film it.

My experience is that its a much different story with the "non-cannon" aircraft.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

Karnak · « **Reply #26 on:** October 03, 2000, 11:49:00 AM »

Vermillion,
In the test I ran with my friend, the P-38, using just machine guns, blew my Lanc's wing off with 20 to 30 hits. That was just 4 50 cals, no cannon.

Sisu
-Karnak

Fishu · « **Reply #27 on:** October 03, 2000, 11:55:00 AM »

I've flown bit those buffs..
When it's been about Hispanos shooting the bomber, it has blown up.
No matter was it two or four hispanos.
when its been Fw190 or 109, I have at least kept myself still flying, although with severe damages.
And I can swear those LW planes has shot me far more than Hispanos, and yet alot worse results.

Vermillion · « **Reply #28 on:** October 03, 2000, 02:01:00 PM »

Karnak, now your just look at X hits = wing removal and making a judegement call on what you think is tough enough.

I'm saying that getting those X hits on the bomber, before the bomber kills YOU is rather difficult in the lighter armed aircraft. Not only because you are using smaller weapons, but less of them. Which means much higher time on target requirements

So my point is the direct inverse of your original arguement that bombers are too easy to kill.

You can't change the debate half way thru.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

Karnak · « **Reply #29 on:** October 03, 2000, 02:23:00 PM »

Vermillion,
I understand what you are saying, but I have not had any trouble getting my guns on target for long enough regardless of what I was flying. This includes machinge gun only aircraft, e.g. P-51D and P-47D-25 (in tests, not in MA).

Certainly I'd expect a Mustang to have a rougher time of it than a Spitfire, but from my personal experience, the fighter can get as much gun time as it needs unless the bomber has flown to an unrealistc altitude (which I also think needs to me changed).

The tests I am refering are not changing my arguement mid-way through. They are merely pointing out what I've found and what I was basing my feelings on from the start. Another thing is that most of the fighters in AH have at least one cannon, exceptions being the P-51D, P-47D-25, P-47D-30, F4U-1A and C.202. Chances are that anyfighter the bomber encounters is going to be cannon armed. Should bombers be that vulnerable to cannon armed aircraft so that the few machine gun armed aircraft can kill them easily as well?

Somebody posted a quote from a German pilot a few months ago. That German said that a B-17's wing took about 7 rounds of 30mm cannon to be blown off. In my tests the P-38 blew my Lanc's wing off with 7 rounds of 20mm cannon fire (no machine guns were fired). Seems to me that a B-17 wing and a Lancaster wing are not that different. More tests seem to be required.

Who knows, maybe in Tour 8 I got lucky and in Tour 9 I'll get slaughtered by bombers. We'll see.

Sisu
-Karnak