Bombers are not tough enough: A fighter's perspective.

[Karnak]

Last night I shot down a Lancaster, a B-26B and B-17G in one flight using a Spitfire MkIX armed with 2 20mm cannon and 4 .303 machine guns.  In each case I blew the left wing off (I don't know why, but when I attack a bomber I almost always blow off the left wing).  I'm not a notable pilot in any way, I do get lucky once in a while (downed a Spit IX when I was in a Bf109G-2 starting at a SEVERE energy disadvantage on Saturday), but nearly everytime I meet an enemy bomber it means a dead bomber.

Karnak has 5 kills and has been killed 1 times against the B-17G
Karnak has 3 kills and has been killed 2 times against the Lancaster
Karnak has 3 kills and has been killed 0 times against the B-26B
Karnak has 0 kills and has been killed 0 times against the Ju88A-4

I know that is not a large sampling, I don't have much time to fly, but these things are EASY to kill.  It just feels to me like their wings come off way too easily.  Look at those wings, they're huge.  Thick, broad, tough things.  I can see losing aerilons reasonably easily, but the whole wing should be much more durable.

I just can't see the point in flying bombers when the first fighter to find you gets a cheap kill at practically no risk to the fighter.  Why would anybody waste 45 minutes climbing to 25,000ft only to be wasted by a fighter that got there in less than 10?  It seems to be a waste of time when you could just take a P-47D-30 and be about as effective and still have a shot a getting there.

Sisu
-Karnak

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Karnak:
I just can't see the point in flying bombers when the first fighter to find you gets a cheap kill at practically no risk to the fighter.  Why would anybody waste 45 minutes climbing to 25,000ft only to be wasted by a fighter that got there in less than 10?  It seems to be a waste of time when you could just take a P-47D-30 and be about as effective and still have a shot a getting there.

Ju-88 below 15k,  K/D 28:11  
(plus few smoked planes that had to give up)

[Karnak]

Fishu,
I hope you take this the right way, but I think you're the exception rather than the rule.  Unlike me, you are exceptionally good at this game.  I don't think that it should require one of the best pilots to survive.

I also note that we have not met as enemies (you fly Rook as well, correct?).

I have to admit that I'd like a crack at you.  Ah well.

Sisu
-Karnak

[Pongo]

Its your teqnique.
The wingtips of bombers are far more vulnerable then rest of the AC, and when you focus on the wingtip you are not giving the gunners as good a shot at you.
I dont know if that is realistic. Also. The two hispanos on a spit are very effective guns.

[HABICHT]

for me they are ok.
on one day, i need 2 passes in 109 with
single 30mm, seeing 2-5 flashes every pass.

then there are days, were they won't die.
flying 4-5 passes and the buff is still
flying, but me down to 20rnds of 30mm.
hit him 10-18 times..still up.

the only "one pass buff killer" for me (only
LW) is the 190 with 2x20+2x30mm. 1-2 passes,
every buff is (normaly-> look "days") history.

i like them like they are now.

------------------
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Habicht
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
   

       

"Die Ta 152 war meine Überlebensversicherung in den letzten Tagen des Krieges" OFw Willi Reschke, Ritterkreuzträger, 38 Abschüsse

[This message has been edited by HABICHT (edited 10-02-2000).]

[Karnak]

HABICHT,
Hmmm.

When I did some testing with a friend in the TA I downed his B-17G in one pass using the Bf109G-10 with the single 30mm cannon.

I blew his left wing off.

Maybe I got lucky.  I've never shot at a B-17G with a 109 other than that.

I haven't found bombers to be too weak if I shoot their fuselage, only the wings.

Sisu
-Karnak

[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 10-02-2000).]

[funked]

I honestly think the balance right now is really good.  With all the different parts on the bombers that can break, you can absorb a lot of hits without dying.

[Karnak]

I don't know guys.

I have yet to have a bomber survive a single pass from me, reguardless of what I am flying.

Maybe I've just been lucky or I'm really good at drilling that left wing.

I just don't know.  They just don't seem tough to me.  My room-mate and I went over this for several hours and he concurs with me, or rather I concur with him.  I'm posting what our observations have been.  I just don't see how a bomber can make it to the target if even one fighter shows up.  Right now it seems to me that bombers have to rely on stealth to sneak in.

Sisu
-Karnak

[minus]

hmmm the problem is the Frigin turbo laser hispano

[Soda]

In my experience, if you spend the time to set the bomber up to make a smart pass on him with a fighter you can usually inflict serious damage or down him in 1 or two passes.  The the other hand if you just try and tail-chase him, you'll lose unless you fly a Hog-C and open up at D1.2

I actually have the most problems with Ju88's, they are tough bastards sometimes.  I've hit them with a whole lotta 20mm Hispano and had them survive.

Soda

[Karnak]

Sure, if the fighter is an idiot and does a level attack from 6 or tries to HO a B-17G.  But if even a modicrum of intelligence is used the bomber is dead.

I just can't see that many of us being dumb enough to try those attack patterns on a bomber.  If those attack patterns are removed, that sets us back to having easily killed bombers.

Minus,
My experience has been the same wether I was using Hispanos or not.

But in a sense, maybe you have a very good point.  Not so much about the flat trajectory of the Hispano, which is correct AFAIK, but rather about their hitting power on bombers.  If the Hispanos are AP then they'd be great against fighter and light to medium vehicles but not so good against a bomber.  The Mg151/20 and Type 99 M2 both used HE rounds to blow big holes in bombers.  The reason they should be more effective against bombers on a hit per hit basis and the same against fighters is because there isn't a whole lot to hit on a small aircraft like a fighter that won't seriously break something, but on a bomber there is a lot of open space that would not affect the bomber if it got a 20mm hole punched in it.  The HE round on the other hand makes a BIG hole and thus has a greater chance of breaking something.

I think that HTC should reduce the damage that the Hispano does to bombers by 33-50%.

'Course, that wouldn't solve my room-mates personal "most feared bomber killer", the P-47D-30, problem.

Sisu
-Karnak

[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 10-02-2000).]

[minus]

heh  i dont know but must be all my bulets ruber made
 how many time i hit a buff with 10 and up 30mm round and thety go away  2x3x   A8 need a nice 50 canon shel hit to get down them
 same in panzer hiting the enemy 10 time until hiz g oin to blow up

 i cant say  Buff are tough orr not inaf tough I can just say Some people , player , pilot  or call it howu like take 2 time more dmg like the other   NET lag   Packet los ? no idea

[Karnak]

My friend and I just ran a couple more tests.

He blew the wing off of my Lanc with 7 hits from his P-38s cannon and on the 2nd test blew it off with aproximately 20 rounds from his .50 cals (note that this closely matches the US Navy's claim that 1 20mm cannon was worth 3 .50 cals as Pyro mentioned in an earlier post).

It seems to me that Lancaster's thick wing should require a bit more to destroy.

Sisu
-Karnak

[Tac]

One word:

HISPANOS.

Try doing that in a pony or p-38 (which supposedly has a hispano like cannon.. hmm... must be the BB firing version of it   ).

[Citabria]

stop whining