Author Topic: If I happen to HO you  (Read 4151 times)

Offline Crash Orange

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Re: If I happen to HO you
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2010, 03:09:28 PM »
If we were fighting for our lives, everyone would HO. However we aren't, you get a new life and a shiney new plane every sortie. HO's take no real effort or skill, which is why they are looked down upon. It's a dead give away, no pun intended, that you're fighting someone with little skill or just plain desperate. If you anticipate it you can usually gain an advantage fairly quick. It's more of an annoyance than anything.

You're playing a different game than the OP and I are playing. Most people on the forums seem to be playing your game. Most people in the MA seem to be playing ours. In our game, impressing you by showing off our uber ace ACM skill is of zero importance. The problem with HOing in our game isn't that it looks bad or lacks elegance or isn't sporting, is that it's usually a high risk, low percentage shot. What the OP is (correctly) saying is that when circumstances make that untrue (a 110 vs. a Zeke) or tactical considerations make it worth the risk (you're defending a base and can just reup if you lose, the other guy will have to fly 20 miles), that practical reason not to take it, the one that matters in our game, goes away.

There are also some irrational but IMO valid reasons: I will always take ANY shot, including a HO, I get at a 262 because I hate them and they deserve to die, and because the loss of his jet and all those perks will ruin his day a lot more than losing my N1K or F6F five times in a row will ruin mine. I'd gladly ram a 262 for the same reason if it weren't well nigh impossible.

Front deflection shot, the only thing that will not result in a front deflection shot opportunity is for both planes to ram each other spinner to spinner. By that reasoning are you saying it would be ok to ho me because I broke to avoid the collision?

No, if the victim had the opportunity to take a shot and didn't it's a HO. The front quarter shot isn't on an initial merge, or a subsequent re-merge after a long extension, it's where one pilot gets his nose around quicker and is still close enough to take the shot before the other guy possibly can, or after you've roped somebody and they're still pointed more or less up at you but they're obviously stalling and will not be able to bring guns to bear.

(Of course the first type immediately turns into a HO situation if you don't kill him with your first shot, so you'd better be sure you can. But I would still distinguish a shot that you should be able to make but is high-risk if you blow it, from a shot that is high-risk even if you execute perfectly.)
« Last Edit: March 16, 2010, 03:11:14 PM by Crash Orange »

Offline 321BAR

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Re: If I happen to HO you
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2010, 03:20:21 PM »
Some large squads like the MuppetsCLAIM JUMPERS and Jokers seize bases with impressive efficiency and lethality. A cloud arrives and one does what one can to resist.
since when have the muppets been BIG? haha insert claim jumpers and ur good  :rofl
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Offline Bronk

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Re: If I happen to HO you
« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2010, 03:27:37 PM »
A true story from a few weeks ago:

player 1: You lame HOtard!
player 1: player 2 is a moron... weak hoer.. get some skillz!
player 1: *continues to whine, freak out, insult*
player 2: but you shot first, I pulled the trigger only after seeing you shooting
player 1: DO YOU THINK IM DUMB ENOUGH TO WAIT FOR YOU TO SHOOT?

 :rofl :rofl

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Offline Spikes

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Re: If I happen to HO you
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2010, 03:33:08 PM »
Great points and all are pretty much true. Sometimes I take some pretty risky shots in perk rides (ie I have HO'ed planes before in a 262, hoping that my speed flying by them is just to fast for them to get a shot on as they come around) and lived.

At least you don't get called for being a HOer in an Ar234. I guess it IS a HO shot since I had guns on him, and him on me, but that's just plain stupid. :lol

I remember shooting Dallas's Chog in my Chog from the dead 6 position (he was flying level) and got PM after PM saying how I was a weak HOer and had no skill.
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Offline Bear76

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Re: If I happen to HO you
« Reply #34 on: March 16, 2010, 03:48:39 PM »
You're playing a different game than the OP and I are playing. Most people on the forums seem to be playing your game. Most people in the MA seem to be playing ours. In our game, impressing you by showing off our uber ace ACM skill is of zero importance. The problem with HOing in our game isn't that it looks bad or lacks elegance or isn't sporting, is that it's usually a high risk, low percentage shot. What the OP is (correctly) saying is that when circumstances make that untrue (a 110 vs. a Zeke) or tactical considerations make it worth the risk (you're defending a base and can just reup if you lose, the other guy will have to fly 20 miles), that practical reason not to take it, the one that matters in our game, goes away.

There are also some irrational but IMO valid reasons: I will always take ANY shot, including a HO, I get at a 262 because I hate them and they deserve to die, and because the loss of his jet and all those perks will ruin his day a lot more than losing my N1K or F6F five times in a row will ruin mine. I'd gladly ram a 262 for the same reason if it weren't well nigh impossible.

No, if the victim had the opportunity to take a shot and didn't it's a HO. The front quarter shot isn't on an initial merge, or a subsequent re-merge after a long extension, it's where one pilot gets his nose around quicker and is still close enough to take the shot before the other guy possibly can, or after you've roped somebody and they're still pointed more or less up at you but they're obviously stalling and will not be able to bring guns to bear.

(Of course the first type immediately turns into a HO situation if you don't kill him with your first shot, so you'd better be sure you can. But I would still distinguish a shot that you should be able to make but is high-risk if you blow it, from a shot that is high-risk even if you execute perfectly.)

Well, I've been playing this game considerably longer than you have and I do think I know how it works. If you feel the need to rely on that type of thing, as many do, by all means take the shot. I'll kill you shortly after and it will all be for naught. It's really as simple as that.

Offline oakranger

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Re: If I happen to HO you
« Reply #35 on: March 16, 2010, 04:07:54 PM »
since when have the muppets been BIG? haha insert claim jumpers and ur good  :rofl

I have to agree.  I may see three or four together.  not over a dozen like Claim Jumpers. 
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Offline Redd

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Re: If I happen to HO you
« Reply #36 on: March 16, 2010, 05:05:50 PM »
Very well thought out post and well said.  :aok

the nose to nose merge is the tough situation here.  I've noticed the veteran players, and those looking for ACM challenges in the MA can be identified by the nose to nose merge. They will nose down as if in the DA, which is the understood technique for a 'fair' merge to put the fight on equal footing, a preference of mine. The trouble is reading the opponent. Too often I attempt to enter this 'fair' merge only to have the bandit pull up over the top of me an shoot me in the cockpit or shoot my tail off. Hmmm did I miss read that? So on the merges now, I always feel the hesitation of trying to figure out if this is going to be a merge and a dog fight or if he's going to shoot me on the merge....

Never get it right.  :pray

So now I just assume it's going to be HO and avoid head on merges. Apologies to those looking for DA style nose to nose merges, but it's just too hard to figure out in the MA.

They aren't nosing down to create a "fair merge" , they are nosing down to create an advantage over you (vertical separation) and probably also to make they HO shot they think you are likely to take a little more difficult. Generally speaking if you see someone dive and gain E into a merge , they will not be HO'ing you, if they fly straight at you - start dodging

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Offline Ardy123

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Re: If I happen to HO you
« Reply #37 on: March 16, 2010, 05:19:54 PM »
A true story from a few weeks ago:

player 1: You lame HOtard!
player 1: player 2 is a moron... weak hoer.. get some skillz!
player 1: *continues to whine, freak out, insult*
player 2: but you shot first, I pulled the trigger only after seeing you shooting
player 1: DO YOU THINK IM DUMB ENOUGH TO WAIT FOR YOU TO SHOOT?

lol.. thats about as funny as when i shot down a noob the other day...
1) he ho'd me
2) I flew up and reversed, dove in on his six and hit him with a tater from his high 6.
3) He complained that I ho'd him.

or another funny stupid situation, where I came in high on a base where I was the only friendly around & there was a swarm of 'red guys' circling the field hoping to vulch people. so...
1) dove in from alt, and started shooting them down
2) After doing so, I was called out for 'picking'.. :confused:
I guess the dweeb def for picking is smart fighting a 10v1 situation....

so it goes... another day of AH
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Offline Boozeman

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Re: If I happen to HO you
« Reply #38 on: March 16, 2010, 05:34:11 PM »
Well, I've been playing this game considerably longer than you have and I do think I know how it works. If you feel the need to rely on that type of thing, as many do, by all means take the shot. I'll kill you shortly after and it will all be for naught. It's really as simple as that.

Behold the hubris.

Offline OOZ662

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Re: If I happen to HO you
« Reply #39 on: March 16, 2010, 06:20:54 PM »
If you HO me, you'll likely get a facefull of antitank ammunition. Not so well advised. :D
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Offline Impakt

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Re: If I happen to HO you
« Reply #40 on: March 16, 2010, 06:23:41 PM »
Thanks almost all very civil replies which is more than anyone could ask. I might add just a few clarifications.

(1) I try not to merge H2H. I am NOT anything but average at ACM so I plead guilty to being mostly a alt weenie/ picker. I do enjoy the CV to Cv furball and there I try and duck/ dodge the H2Hs. I've just been surprised at the number of people FLYING STRAIGHT AT ME (to exaggerate in a D3A vs my 190a8) no matter what the situation, and often upside down so they can split ess. Anyway---I don't advocate it or fly right at people, but it seems to happen a lot.

(2) As to time in game---true I started here in 2008. Was in WBs in very minor way at start (97-99) and for a couple of years before coming here. So, if being an "old hand" makes you feel good---well good.

(3) I did not mean to say that the squads mentioned were "big" in an insulting way---that is why I said "impressive efficiency and lethality."

 :salute


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Offline shiv

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Re: If I happen to HO you
« Reply #41 on: March 16, 2010, 06:39:59 PM »
Thanks almost all very civil replies which is more than anyone could ask. I might add just a few clarifications.

(1) I try not to merge H2H. I am NOT anything but average at ACM so I plead guilty to being mostly a alt weenie/ picker. I do enjoy the CV to Cv furball and there I try and duck/ dodge the H2Hs. I've just been surprised at the number of people FLYING STRAIGHT AT ME (to exaggerate in a D3A vs my 190a8) no matter what the situation, and often upside down so they can split ess. Anyway---I don't advocate it or fly right at people, but it seems to happen a lot.

(2) As to time in game---true I started here in 2008. Was in WBs in very minor way at start (97-99) and for a couple of years before coming here. So, if being an "old hand" makes you feel good---well good.

(3) I did not mean to say that the squads mentioned were "big" in an insulting way---that is why I said "impressive efficiency and lethality."

 :salute

I am but a student but I have learned that in a co-alt merge the guy going for the HO is usually an easy kill - mostly because he's putting himself out of position for the rest of the fight.  This situation comes up over and over again in the WW1 arenas - and there as in the MA it's the guy who doesn't go for the HO is the guy who I'm going to have a hard time with.

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Offline Bear76

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Re: If I happen to HO you
« Reply #42 on: March 16, 2010, 07:28:36 PM »
Behold the hubris.
Behold the clueless

Offline Ghastly

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Re: If I happen to HO you
« Reply #43 on: March 16, 2010, 08:14:02 PM »
If we were fighting for our lives, everyone would HO.

Actually, most people would do just about anything possible to not put themselves in front of a gun barrel if this were "for real"...

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Offline kingcobradude

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Re: If I happen to HO you
« Reply #44 on: March 16, 2010, 08:26:15 PM »
sometimes you really dont have much choice. if youre intercepting bombers, ho may be nessescary, and if im in a b25h deacking a field, and someone flied head on to me, conveniently putting himself in the line of fire of my package, im going to unload on him, knowing this bird is not maneuverable, and if he gets on my six, im screwed since hes got more lead shooters than me, and its even worse when my gunner is asleep on the juob and hogging the place so I cannot man the guns
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