Allied perk planes

[juzz]

1,816 P-47N out of 15,000+ Thunderbolts produced, seeing combat only in 1945 escorting B-29's to Japan is COMMON?

[Pongo]

Numbers made is irellivent to perk status or not.

Thinking that the 47Ns lack of Uberness at 8k makes a general lack of Uberness is pretty narrow minded. Like all planes I think that it should be introduced to the MA non perk. But I would be really supprised if a bigger winged 50mph faster P47 would not end up perked.

[Vermillion]

Juzz, oh and 957 out of 21,200 + is so much more representative?

Nashwan, have you forgotten the second favorite whipping boy of AH that quickly? The N1K2 production was almost entirely in 1945.

Personally, I think we will get the P-47N and it will be perked.

It just irks me when people complain about "low production non-representative dweeb planes" but then in the same breath go on to ask for the Spit XIV, Fw190D9, or the Me109K4, all of which fall into the same category with production numbers less than 1,000 themselves.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[juzz]

No it's not, and I never said it was, did I?

PS: Why ask for the Me 109K-4? It's been in the planeset from Day 1...

[coyote]

 

It's sort of funny, you'd think that people that really like P-47s WOULDN'T want the M or N to show up as a perk plane; though I guess there's a conflict between getting a P-47 much better than the ones we have now to fly all the time, and bragging about the uberness of the last models of the P-47 :-)

Hey, I'm EZ, I'll settle for it just showing up, perk or not! :-)

Oh yea, anyone know the climb rate on the M or N? I know the XP-47J was over 4k/min up to and above 20,000 feet.

[Jimdandy]

 

Originally posted by Vermillion:
Juzz, oh and 957 out of 21,200 + is so much more representative?

Nashwan, have you forgotten the second favorite whipping boy of AH that quickly? The N1K2 production was almost entirely in 1945.

Personally, I think we will get the P-47N and it will be perked.

It just irks me when people complain about "low production non-representative dweeb planes" but then in the same breath go on to ask for the Spit XIV, Fw190D9, or the Me109K4, all of which fall into the same category with production numbers less than 1,000 themselves.

Yep. That's why I think the perk calculation should be based on a combination of rarity and performance. Rare in my opinion is around 3,000 or less. Considering they made an estimated 35,000 Bf 109's I would say that's fair. That might mean perking planes that are already in the MA. I'm sure the F4U-C should be perked. I read on one of these posts that there were only 200 C-hog's made so I would call it rare. The production total of the N1K's I have is 1,435.  My figures show that there were 3,382 of all types of Ki-84's produced so if the N1K is in the MA unperked the Ki-84's certainly should be. I consider them rare and perkable. That doesn't mean C-hog should be an expensive perk. It's rate of climb, top speed and maneuverability aren't super extraordinary it's just rare. The N1K and Ki-84 are getting into the class of both rare and extraordinary performance. Planes like the Tempest, P-47M, P-51H, F8F, La-7, Fw190D-9, Me262 etc fall into perkable because of a combination of varying degrees of rarity and extraordinary performance. Just weigh that into the expense of the plane. It doesn't matter that some perform better at higher alt they were better performers. They don't represent the "norm" in their type in late 44-45. It's just my opinion. I know it wont be implemented so there is no reason for any of you to go into a panic. I don't consult for HT. I always love it when I post something like this and I get people that act like it will be implemented tomorrow or something. It's so funny. I'm certainly open to opinion's.

[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 02-19-2001).]

[Torgo]

Well, it doesn't matter what WE think is a perk; it's what HTC thinks is a perk.

And it's pretty clear that size of production run and time of introduction are irrelevant to them.

All they care about is whether a given aircraft would take over the arena. (Of course, the defination of "take over" is another whole kettle of fish.)

The Spit XIV or Tempest would likely "take over" the arena.

I believe the P-47M or N would not.

[Effdub]

"The N1K2 production was almost entirely in 1945."

I wonder how many LWers were flying the 109F-4 in 1945....

It's really funny how the whole thing gets twisted and beaten into shape so that Planes from 1945 won't dominate mid war planes...

U guys may not like a RPS, but is this solution really better?

"Let's do the time warp again..."  

Effdub
(hope they don't perk the Spit 9 - I'm having to much fun beating up Spit 5's in it

[Widewing]

 

Originally posted by juzz:
1,816 P-47N out of 15,000+ Thunderbolts produced, seeing combat only in 1945 escorting B-29's to Japan is COMMON?

Actually, the P-47N spent as much time flying fighter sweep missions as it did escort. Usually, they encountered the Japanese at low to medium altitudes, and with rare exception, waxed them good.

My regards,

Widewing

[Widewing]

 

Originally posted by Vermillion:
Fine Nashwan, lets just have the P-47N then. Similar performance to the M as long as they are loaded with the same fuel loads, and they were COMMON.

How about this? Instead of a P-47M as a perk, let's see the P-72A Superbolt. Now here is an absolutely untouchable fighter at low altitude. 480 mph at sea level.

"Now, wait a minute", you say.

"Don't you mean 380 mph at sea level?"

No sir, I mean 480 mph. The XP-72 recorded this speed in 1944 on just 3,000 hp. It was planned to go into production with 3,600+ hp on tap. Think about this for a minute. The P-72A was faster than the Me 262 below 10,000 ft and was expected to be just 22 mph slower than the 262 at 25,000 feet. With the P-80 entering production and the Republic XP-84 design being accepted, the USAAF cancelled the P-72 program. It was the victim of turbojet technology. However, had the Me 262 been a larger problem than it was, Republic was prepared to deliver the first P-72A fighters as early as December, 1944.

Here's a nice shot of the first XP-72 prototype forwarded to me by Warren Bodie.
 

Think about this for a moment: This aircraft was 120 mph faster at sea level than the F4U-1D.....

My regards,

Widewing

[juzz]

Sorry, Me 262 does 514mph at sea level.

Wow, those guys at Rebublic must have been 10x better at aerodynamics than the guys at Goodyear - they only got 399mph out of the F2G with the same engine...

[coyote]

 

Originally posted by Animal:
coyote,
are you aware the HOTAS 2000 wont be coming out for quite a few months?
Just in case  

Last I heard it was still comming out in march, but even if it does not I will be perfectly happy building models until it does :-)

[Widewing]

 

Originally posted by juzz:
Sorry, Me 262 does 514mph at sea level.

Wow, those guys at Rebublic must have been 10x better at aerodynamics than the guys at Goodyear - they only got 399mph out of the F2G with the same engine...

According to what I have read, the 262 cannot sustain full throttle for more than three minutes at sea level. After that, the EGT goes off the scale and the turbine wheel begins to demonstrate the ductility of Silly Putty. My pal George Ceuleers chased a 262 for 120 miles across Germany in his P-51D-15.
The 262 would pull ahead by two or three miles, but had to reduce power to prevent over-temping the engines. Ceuleers would close up, and the 262 pilot would push up the throttles again to open the gap. This went on until one of the engines finally failed under the strain. George closed in and shot down the German. This 262 pilot survived the war and later testified to Ceuleer's story being accurate. The chase took place at "rooftop levels". I have grave doubts that the Me 262 could outrun the P-72 down low.

As to the XF2G-1: This was no more than an early model FG-1 (Birdcage type) with a poorly designed engine installation. The cowling design made considerably greater drag than that of the FG-1. Moreover, the XF2G-1 used the early R-4360-4 engine, which although rated for 3,000 hp at sea level, never produced more than 2,650 hp. Looking at the P-72, we find that it was a much cleaner installation, and its drag coefficient was 20-25% lower than the big, ugly Goodyear. Later, when more power was available, and the installation had been cleaned up somewhat, the F2G-1 could pull 425 mph at sea level. A notable difference between the Goodyear and the XP-72 was in available power. The R-4360-13 truly generated 3,000 hp. Other problems plagued the XF2G-1, such as requiring a large amount of rudder displacement to offset the severe propwash that impinged on the vertical stabilizer. This also added drag and reduced maximum speed.

The factory test documents, signed off by the AAF list 480 mph recored at sea level on 4/14/44 with Carl Bellinger. Ken Jernstedt confirmed that speed two weeks later. Republic's 480 mph sea level speeds are not only accurate, but do not reflect the final production version planned to have 4,000 hp.
This configuration was expected to produce speeds in excess of 500 mph at sea level, with 522 mph at 25,000 feet being a reasonable figure for the power available. This configuration would have included a six blade, contra-rotating prop, rather than the four blade unit installed on Prototype #1.

My regards,

Widewing

[Zigrat]

at first i thought widewing was a really learned guy (which im sure you are) but you carry as strong a bias with you as some of the luftwobble whiners and it shines through  

[Buzzbait]

S! all

Several comments:

1)  There were 300 P-47M's built, and they saw a heck of a lot more service than the C-Hogs.  The P-47M is preferable to the P-47N because it had lower wingloading.  It was based on the standard P-47 D-30 airframe, but not only did it have the uprated engine, it also had a lot of weight shaved off.

2)  I think as I have mentioned before that there should be a P-47D-21 Razorback.  The pre-bubble top 47's were the planes which filled the role as escort for the B-17 during the crucial period of December '43 to June '44.  This was the period when the 8th A.F. broke the back of the Luftwaffe, killing off most of the experienced Jagdwaffe pilots and establishing a dominance in the air which was never seriously challenged after that.  (It would also be nice to see the P-51b too. It, not the P-51D flew during this period)  The D-21 Razorback had the lower weight (approx. 12,800 full internal fuel) and thus lower wingloading which allowed it to be more competitive.  (See Widewing's earlier post for me of the P-47D21 weights document)