Industrial wind farms

[Gixer]

Unless you can put them at 36,000 feet windfarms are completely ridiculous and useless for many reasons.

The only options on the horizon for energy is fusion nuclear power and/or solid oxide fuel cells. Ceramic fuel cells possibly the best as they would do away with
the national power grids and networks.


<S>...-Gixer

[oboe]

I work as a wind turbine technician at an industrial windfarm in northen Iowa.   Our site has over 230 wind turbines installed on approximately 180 square miles of Iowa prime farmland.   I don't particularly like the sight of 260' wind turbines stretching to the horizon, but that is the American model of development.  I've also worked on them in Ireland and England and their sites tended to be in remote locations (like on mountains or highlands) with typically less than a dozen machines.   I prefer that model of development but differences in land ownership complications and expectations of corporate profits give rise to these mega projects.   It does cast an industrial aura to a rural landscape, but in all honesty northern Iowa already is industrial - industrial agriculture.   The creeks have been straightened; trees and brush removed from their banks, virtually every bit of arable land is plowed.    Hog confinement buildings are numerous and the concentrated odor from the excrement of hundreds of pigs carries on the breeze.

I have worked at the Iowa site more than a year and have seen only one animal obivously killed by the turbine and that was a bat.   Most people assume the spinning blades confuse the bat's echolocation abilities and they fly into the blades, but there is a recent study that indicated it was the difference in air pressure between the front and back side of the blades that ruptures the bat's lungs.  

I've been exposed to several designs of turbines and have never seen one with a diesel engine in it to get it started spinning.   I would like to know more about that model.   In my experience the wind is usually sufficient to get them turning.   Our model begins producing at wind speeds of 4 m/s, and cuts out if the wind exceeds 25 m/s for ten minutes.   So that's a pretty fair operating range.

Gixer's idea to install them at 36,000 feet would handicap their production a great deal, owing to the much less dense air at that altitude.   I do like his suggestion to do away with the national grid in favor of decentralization (the way it was when I grew up).   Interconnecting regional grids, privatizing producers and turning electricity into a commodity to be traded has put alot of pressure on our grid, and also allowed for price manipulation schemes like the one that caused the California energy crisis in 2000-2001.

[oakranger]

The issue with the wind turbine is the environmental effects (short and long term).  Yea, they are a clean way of producing energy but their presents will cause other land environmental problems. As oboe said, the blades will kill the bats as studies showed.  It will not be long before you see migratory birds that are killed by the blades.  Many land owners will give up their land for the money or at least that is the case in Kansas.  They are neat to see once but after that they pollute the land scape.   

[Peyton]

There's a proposal to develop 3700 acres of farmland a couple of miles from here into a wind farm for electricity.  The idea does not impress me. And it's not a case of NIMBY.

Anybody have any experience with these things?

It's better than having your water, land, forests and mountains ruined by strip mining for coal.

[dedalos]

Wind is still not my "favorite" type of power, which goes hands down to solar.

What?  But what happens at night or when there is an eclipse or . . . .

Coal is the solution! Burn baby burn 

[Skuzzy]

There are more ways to generate power today, than ever before.

1)  Micky D's has been experimenting with in ground generators driven by cars that drive through the drive-thourgh window.  It operates as a car rolls over a bump its weight presses down driving a flywheel which operates a generator.  They have reported a 38% reduction in power used off the grid with the system.

2)  In road power generation.  Experiments underway that use the vibrations of vehicles driving over the freeways to create electricity.

3)  Elevators that regenerate power as they are operating.

4)  Trains using regenerative braking systems to feed power back into the grid as they stop.

There are many others.  These are all supplemental systems designed to ease the load on the grid by providing localized power.  I really think these are outstanding solutions and a good goal to shoot for.

De-centralizing the grid should help reduce the costs of maintaining it.  It would also be less likely to potentially cascade fail and take out whole sections of the country if a problem did arise.

My opinion.

[ridley1]

solar makes great sense to me in one respect......
when the sun is shining, and it damn hot out, that's when you use it to run your a/c

[oboe]

The issue with the wind turbine is the environmental effects (short and long term).  Yea, they are a clean way of producing energy but their presents will cause other land environmental problems. As oboe said, the blades will kill the bats as studies showed.  It will not be long before you see migratory birds that are killed by the blades.  Many land owners will give up their land for the money or at least that is the case in Kansas.  They are neat to see once but after that they pollute the land scape.   

I'm saying for the amount of electricity produced at our site over a year, one bat death doesn't seem that significant.  All forms of energy production will surely have some drawbacks.   Bat mortality does appear to be an issue with wind turbines and needs to be studied to find the cause and minimize the effect on bat populations.  Could be as simple as increasing the setback from known bat roosting areas, or prohibiting the construction of large windfarms near sizeable bat populations.   I think if the farms posed a danger to migratory birds I would've seen some dead birds on site by now - there is a wetland area within the site that would attract waterfowl.   Also all the pheasants around here don't seem to have a problem.

Wind has a place in the energy production mix for sure, I'm just in favor of smart siting and less dense developments.

Also, the turbines run quietly.   They should be no louder than the sound of the wind through the corn leaves in summer.   They can be very loud however if the yaw brake system is malfunctioning and the yaw brakes drag.   That noise can range from a loud hammering sound to something that sounds like a dinosaur mating call.   Definitely an indication the turbine needs service.

[ridley1]

interesting article from the financial post here:

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fpcomment/archive/2009/04/08/wind-power-is-a-complete-disaster.aspx

[LLv34_Camouflage]

If the cost of energy keeps increasing continuously, how about reducing the amount of energy spent?

Camo

[Skuzzy]

OI am thinking out loud here, so here goes.

There would seem to be a potential downside to reducing our electrical usage.  Bear with me.

When we reduce our usage, the income for the power companies is also reduced.  Keep in mind their long term maintenance goals requires X amount of money, regardless of usage patterns.  If there is a substantial drop in demand for any period of time, would the power companies have to request rate hikes to cover the shortfall in projected maintenance costs?

Long term reduced demand would seem to need to be scheduled and coordinated with the utility in order for them to get rid of or shut down equipment no longer needed.

[betty]

i dont know bout the lack of usage for me on this skuzzy, my kids NEVER like to shut anything off when they are supposed to, so I think my bill alone is pretty close to many in this world if they have kids also. I think together we all can keep the electric companies up and running just fine hehe.

[Gixer]

Gixer's idea to install them at 36,000 feet would handicap their production a great deal, owing to the much less dense air at that altitude.

Less dense air is outweighed by the fact it blows constantly at 70 to 150mph obviously you wouldn't have a mill of the same design at those altitudes, it possibly wouldn't even be a mill at all. But any sort of wind power is next to useless ground level or even by running cables to 30,000 feet. It's just another industry that's riding the back of the greenies carbon con wave at the moment and milking it for all it's worth as long as they can..

Wind turbines are more about politics then actual significant alternative energy production.

The only real future energy sources that can completely change the worlds energy generation and distriubution are fusion and/or fuel cells. Windfarms just add a few watts to the grid that's powered by the coal station down the road and through the exisiting highly inefficent grid.



<S>...-Gixer

[soda72]

a little off topic,

But how many here have tried the ecosmart light bulbs?

I bought a 100 watt equilvlant that is only suppose to use 27 watts for my home office..

They are suppose to last twice as long as an "incandescent light bulb"..

[oakranger]

I'm saying for the amount of electricity produced at our site over a year, one bat death doesn't seem that significant.  All forms of energy production will surely have some drawbacks.   Bat mortality does appear to be an issue with wind turbines and needs to be studied to find the cause and minimize the effect on bat populations.  Could be as simple as increasing the setback from known bat roosting areas, or prohibiting the construction of large windfarms near sizeable bat populations.   I think if the farms posed a danger to migratory birds I would've seen some dead birds on site by now - there is a wetland area within the site that would attract waterfowl.   Also all the pheasants around here don't seem to have a problem.

Wind has a place in the energy production mix for sure, I'm just in favor of smart siting and less dense developments.

Also, the turbines run quietly.   They should be no louder than the sound of the wind through the corn leaves in summer.   They can be very loud however if the yaw brake system is malfunctioning and the yaw brakes drag.   That noise can range from a loud hammering sound to something that sounds like a dinosaur mating call.   Definitely an indication the turbine needs service.

I really do not know what the mortality rate is on bats.  But i do know that it has to be at a certain levels for scientist to study on why it is at that level.  As for migratory birds or any birds, I have not yet heard any cases.  I am sure there is a mortality rate at low levels to be as common as to being hit by cars or air planes.