second merge vert snap trick

[Ardy123]

There is a post stall trick that I have seen many 'top sticks' do where on the second merge they go perfectly vert, then they snap the plane such that its horizontal and inverted and take a snap shot. How are they 'snaping' the plane  from pointing perfectly vert to a horizontal inverted position.

I tried to do it yesterday in the DA with Redd by giving left rudder and moving the stick to the lower left corner but it did not 'snap' in a controllable way such that I could manage a shot.

Thanks

[boomerlu]

If you could post a film of the maneuver, that would help.

My guess (from doing vertical maneuvers myself) is that the pilot brings the plane just past vertical and then does some combination of popping flaps and power-off stall. Without knowing what the maneuver actually looks like, it's hard to tell. And those possibilities I mentioned are NOT controllable. They are however plan - able such that if you had a really good sense of space and prediction of your opponent, you might be able to get a snapshot.

[Redd]

Not sure about snap stalls Ardy , don't know if they are reliable enough to count on , better off staying in control.

Maybe they are just rolling in the oppoosite direction of the turn they came out of (using rudder to get it rolling) close to the point of stall , and the net lag is making it look a bit unusual. Things can appear different to what they are due to the little bit of netlag. Sometimes when you roll with rudder it comes around pretty quickly, almost a snap (in the Hellcat anyway).

 

[Ghosth]

Ardy because of perspective, and distance often what looks like a "snap" switch is really just a plain ol immelman or loop.

You'd need film from both sides in order to prove it however.

[Tailspin]

There is a post on the Bf109 torque roll started by you, but someone posted a video of what I think your discrbing. It's the "famous" one that Agent360 posted on.

good luck,
Tailspin

[JunkyII]

There is a post stall trick that I have seen many 'top sticks' do where on the second merge they go perfectly vert, then they snap the plane such that its horizontal and inverted and take a snap shot. How are they 'snaping' the plane  from pointing perfectly vert to a horizontal inverted position.

I tried to do it yesterday in the DA with Redd by giving left rudder and moving the stick to the lower left corner but it did not 'snap' in a controllable way such that I could manage a shot.

Thanks

Are you talking about what Grizz or SunsFan do? They both can put accurate shots on you from stall speeds it really is amazing. Suns told me once its just him using thottle work to work his nose around but I cant do it.

[Ardy123]

There is a post on the Bf109 torque roll started by you, but someone posted a video of what I think your discrbing. It's the "famous" one that Agent360 posted on.
good luck,
Tailspin

yeah, I can do torque rolls all day, but I can't get the nose 'in position' for a shot quick enough nor do I have enough inverted horizontal yaw control to do the minor corrections to make the shot line up. I wish I saved the fight I did with Redd, because it illustrated the problem with the torque roll, I got my nose over, slid to the left about 90ish degrees (as anticipated), but then did not have enough e or enough lateral authority to make the snapshot, and my nose just fell under his plane & I was forced to do other moves from there.

Are you talking about what Grizz or SunsFan do? They both can put accurate shots on you from stall speeds it really is amazing. Suns told me once its just him using thottle work to work his nose around but I cant do it.

exactly!

[TonyJoey]

Are you talking about what Grizz or SunsFan do? They both can put accurate shots on you from stall speeds it really is amazing. Suns told me once its just him using thottle work to work his nose around but I cant do it.

Working throttle helps control the torque as you're coming around. Letting off and putting throttle back on according to your attitude helps stabilize the plane/turn the plane enough for a shot as you're stalling. Adding rudder also helps to control it. Get used to that torque in stalls, as once you know how much it will roll you will be able to determine how much throttle you put on or off to get the shot.

Edit: One anology to help understand what the throttle work is doing is imagine a P38 on the top of a stall. Cut engine 1, and you hammerhead left, cut eng. 2 vice versa. By cutting throttle with a 109, it is much easier to roll right, while adding throttle forces it to go left. By "working your throttle" you can make a 109 or anyother plane for that matter come out of a stall opposite its torque.


Expl.http://www.mediafire.com/?jyizmkzzrwo

Hope this helped some.

[grizz441]

I stick my nose up vertical a lot but I don't ever 'snap' it.  When I get it straight vertical in the situation you describe, I am slowing down quicker than you, and you are usually in some sort of a spiral climb around me.  Picture a tether ball spiraling up the post.  I'm the post and you are the tether ball spiraling around me.  When the fight develops like this, my goal is to spin to the point where you will cross in my guns at the right time.  To counter this you want to get wider as I draw in near guns.  Kappa has the best spiral climb in the game doing this and I have a very hard time getting guns on him in this setup.  Hope this helps.

[Wreked]

sounds like half a "hammerhead" to me - usually performed just above stall speed - (which might make it an uncompleted immelman??..immelman to me tho involves more of a powered loop than a straight vertical manauver followed by an attitude/directional change at stall point).

a film would be great - sounds interesting - i can always learn something new

...cheers eh!

[Ardy123]

I stick my nose up vertical a lot but I don't ever 'snap' it.  When I get it straight vertical in the situation you describe, I am slowing down quicker than you, and you are usually in some sort of a spiral climb around me.  

yes, I do that because I am trying to do 2 things... 1) reduce my vert forward motion because I see that you are slowing down, 2) to make it hard for you to just point you nose up and take the shot. So I'm doing the turn to tight I take it?

I am slowing down quicker than you,

How? just by cutting throttle? because if you give rudder, your nose wont be perfectly vert anymore and you wont get the shot, just rolling it should burn less e than me spiral climbing...

Thanks

[Noah17]

I think I know what Ardy is talking about. It does kind of work like a hammerhead but it seems to be executed much much faster. In a hammerhead you kind of roll on your side from pointing up to pointing down.....

In this maneuver it seems like the plane almost immediately stops and then spins almost like a top(from its center of balance) and very fast; giving it a snap-spin-reversal effect. I can't figure out how to do it either (in F4U). I can reverse w/ rudder but it's much slower than what I think Ardy is talking about. I have seen mustangs do it and a couple other planes as well. I wouldn't think the mustang would have that kind of ability but.....I have the holes in my _ _ _ to prove it.

I'd like to know how to do it too, not so much for an immediate shot but for the quick reversal. BigRat has been a BigHelp (LOL) with my reversals but I never asked about this maneuver.


I think/hope i'm correct in my assumption.

 

[JunkyII]

Grizz, thats exactly what I was talking about and that description really helps me understand what your doing. I just have a hard time controlling the plane for the shots you can make there

[grizz441]

How? just by cutting throttle? because if you give rudder, your nose wont be perfectly vert anymore and you wont get the shot, just rolling it should burn less e than me spiral climbing...
Thanks

Because the nose of my plane is pointed upward at a steeper angle.  Say I'm pointed upward at 85 degrees or so and you are spiraling around at 60 degrees.  I am maintaining my E just as good yet I am staying 'inside' your turns by being slower.  It's hard to dive too far into detail when we don't have an exact example to go over.  In a nutshell, whoever gets their nose up higher will slow down quicker.

[Messiah]

I think what you're describing is something like this: http://www.mediafire.com/?2zjzwd4t10w

Nath could do some crazy stuff like that and usually hit.