Aces High Gun Lethality Test

[funked]

Dinger decided to actually investigate the power of the different weapons:  http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum2/HTML/000227.html

[Toad]

Interesting test, if unavoidably somewhat informal.

Doesn't seem to support the "Hispano cannons fire atomic shells" complaints that some would have us believe tho.

 

[Ripsnort]

 

Originally posted by Toad:
Interesting test, if unavoidably somewhat informal.

Doesn't seem to support the "Hispano cannons fire atomic shells" complaints that some would have us believe tho.

 

Oh, no, we were  just all wrong, when those F4U-1C's take out 5-7 Bombers in a b17 formation on 1 pass a piece, its just all in our imagination.  Pul-lease!

[lazs]

Hmm... Seems the Browning fifties are as weak in this sim as they initialy felt to me.
lazs

[Fatty]

Rip, if you have a decent approach, no plane in the game takes me more than one pass on a bomber.

[Hangtime]

Hey Rip.. on ONE sortie last night I took down 3 b17's; all well gunned.

I then snagged a B26; also defended. And bagged a Me109 that wasn't lookin.

Had some ammo left too.

Gonna campaign to ban the p51?

Hang

[Ripsnort]

 

Originally posted by Hangtime:
Hey Rip.. on ONE sortie last night I took down 3 b17's; all well gunned.

I then snagged a B26; also defended. And bagged a Me109 that wasn't lookin.

Had some ammo left too.

Gonna campaign to ban the p51?

Hang

I haven't "campaigned" to ban anything, I've only asked  that  the Hispanos or alternate historical arena be looked into.

I would expect a  pilot of your caliber and time online within AH to do so, Hang.  When someone comes along with less than 2 hours of AH under his belt (and had never flown online games before) performs this feat, then that makes  a  statement for the imbalance itself.

Anyway, its a dead subject, I just don't like it when people discount others perception of a game quirk simply as a problem with the person, and not the game.  There are more than 4-6 people that think the cannons are alittle overwhelming.  It was a problem in Warbirds, they changed it in Warbirds.  Have you flown one for a tour Hang?  I've been flying nothing but the F4U-1C in Tour 4 and IMO I think it causes an imbalance. MY OPINION. End of subject.

[easymo]

 Here is a test. Set convergance to 350. Fire cannon only, near this range (under 400 yards). Produce a film showing 3 or more hit sprites, where the plane does not go down. You can use any cannon armed plane. I tried for weeks. I could not do it.

 BTW im talking about fighters. As they should, bombers take more hits.

[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 05-17-2000).]

[funked]

Easymo, Yep yep yep...  

[-towd_]

lets see that film hang in a 51 ? well guned meaning they saw you commin? i call roadkill.

[Toad]

First of all, I salute <S> Dinger for taking the time to try to find a little OBJECTIVE information on this subject. It's a pleasant change from the snarling.


Rip,

All I said was THIS test does not appear to support the claims against the Hispanos.

Here's what Dinger posted:

Mk108 30mm 109G6 140 21.4
HSMk2 20mm P-38L 345 8.7
F4U-1C
99mk2 20mm N1K 375 8.0
ShVAK 20mm La-5FN 400 7.5
151 20mm 109F4 400 7.5

What this says to me is that in THIS test, the HS Mk2 cannon round delivers 116% of the damage that a round of 151 delivers <in both the P-38 AND the F-4U-1C..results are the same for the gun>.

That's ALL it says and it is dependent upon the conditions in THIS test (for example, one factor is that this test was conducted against a hangar).

Now, 116%, in the light of previous discussions <see the thread where Pyro posted the pic of all the cannon shells>, doesn't support the oft heard claim that Hispano rounds are some sort of "miracle bullets", IMHO.

They do deliver more damage but not an incredible amount more, given the ballistic/explosive stats that have been posted in so many other threads.

It would appear that if a Cannon Hog driver can tap the trigger and fire one round from each of his 4 Hispanos and they all hit, then a 109 driver with a single 20mm will have to land a 5 round burst to do apporximately equal damage. <But I guess we have to qualify and say "against a hangar".> Again, this doesn't seem way out of line to me.

Is there something wrong with the Hispano's? I don't know. If so, this test doesn't show it, however. Perhaps further investigation is required, eh? Maybe it's the damage model? Maybe it's ROF? Maybe it's something else?

Maybe there's nothing wrong with them?

If you approach this subject with an open mind, you can see many different possibilities.

If one is simply a "Corsair-o-phobe", then until things are made to suit predetermined predjudices, there will be unhappiness.

I support testing like this. I congratulate Dinger and encourage him and others to do more such research.

[funked]

Toad thank you for saying what I don't have the patience to express.

[Toad]

...and looking at this data from another angle...

The 151 has a ROF of ~ 700RPM vs the HS Mk2 at ~650 RPM.  I think we can safely round these off to be:

151 = 12 Rounds/Sec
HS Mk2 = 11 Rounds/Sec

So, when a guy who can really shoot trips the trigger for 1 Second in both planes then his one second accurate burst from:

A single 20mm 109 puts 12 rounds on target.

A quad 20mm F4 puts 44 rounds on target.Each round apparently has 116% of the "killing power" of the 151 round so it's like hitting with 51 rounds from the 109.

The FW 190 with the quad 20mm package is very close to the F4 in Hooligan's analysis. With it's higher ROF, it's putting out 48 rounds in that 1 second burst. Yet it certainly doesn't have the "killer" reputation that the F4 does.

The major difference I see is that the FW guns have 20% less muzzle velocity than the F4's, which is somewhat compensated for by using a lighter projectile. Without haveing the ballistic coefficients, you can't really say much more than that.

I'm not coming to conclusions here, just turning things over and over in my mind. Sort of trying to look at this from many different angles.

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 05-18-2000).]

[Hooligan]

Toad:

The Mg151 rounds are much slower, and out past 300 yards or so the time of flight and shell drop difference starts becoming significant so the Mg151s will presumably be getting less hits at medium to long ranges.  Furthermore the mixed battery of the A8 muddies the issue a bit since some observed hits from an A8 will be mg hits and not 20mm hits.

Hooligan

[Cobra]

Maybe look at this from a different angle....

Its not that the hispano's are "turbo-laser" accurate, but the icon laser ranging indicator system is.

So if this weapon is modeled correctly and can reach out further and more accurately than other 20mm models, then its only natural that with the icon laser range finder it will be more accurate.  The icon range indicator under 1-1.5k is like using a laser sight on your rifle.

Just another aspect to consider....

Cobra



[This message has been edited by Cobra (edited 05-18-2000).]