Author Topic: 190A5 vs 190A8  (Read 65181 times)

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #405 on: April 18, 2010, 04:51:44 PM »
Not sure though that thorsim needs to be PNG'd, he's the last of the Lufthwhiners and we should preserve them so the future generations can have some amusement.


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Offline hitech

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #406 on: April 18, 2010, 04:59:07 PM »
Some days I really hate computers. Or more correctly stupid coaders.

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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #407 on: April 18, 2010, 06:42:26 PM »
Some days I really hate computers. Or more correctly stupid coaders.

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Offline Mar

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #408 on: April 18, 2010, 08:16:43 PM »
I'm slightly inclined to agree with Ack-Ack; however, this guy really had it coming to him.

once again i fail
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Offline Wagger

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #409 on: April 19, 2010, 02:08:07 AM »
Well I don't agree with that.  A subject was brought up and feed back is what makes or breaks the thread.  Unfortunately there is always those who come in to put in their two cents and do so with the intent to breed content and cause dysfunction within the community.  Yes every one has an opinion and has a right to voice it.  But watching these threads from afar it is evident that some of the participants go out of their way either unintentional or on purpose to cause friction and  discord among the community to meet their goals.  If you feel the persons view is wrong state you objections and reasons why.  But there are those who seem to  violate rule #4 and then accuse others of doing the same thing.  I say don't get self righteous and then accuse the other side of aggravating the problem.  I would say everyone needs to step back and take a long look at the problem and at themselves.  If you have a problem with my opinion then contact me at fphpcp@yahoo.com and I will be happy to discuss it individually.   

Offline Ardy123

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #410 on: April 19, 2010, 02:34:50 AM »
But watching these threads from afar it is evident that some of the participants go out of their way either unintentional or on purpose to cause friction and  discord among the community to meet their goals.  

well put, sadly some need to put down others to feel good about their pathetic selves (I'm not referring to the PNG although I don't agree with it either)... The thread was why the A8 performance was worse than the A5's and there was some interesting stuff here. The thread was not an excuse to trash talk each other and add no value.

:salute

« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 03:56:23 AM by Ardy123 »
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #411 on: April 19, 2010, 03:13:24 AM »
well put, sadly some need to put down others to feel good about their pathetic selves... The thread was why the A8 performance was worse than the A5's and there was some interesting stuff here. The thread was not an excuse to trash talk each other and add no value.

:salute



Not that I agree with the PNG but this thread is nothing more than your typical Luftwhiner thread, pure and simple.  Both Gaston and thorsim were repeatedly shown data that they dismissed because of a complete lack of understanding of the subject and yet insisted in claiming the flight model was porked.  They made their beds and now they have to lie in them. 

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Offline Ardy123

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #412 on: April 19, 2010, 03:35:02 AM »
So the consensus is that the A8 may have a few extra pounds on it? Also, what exactly is the engine output modeled by the game? Looking online there appears to be mild discrepancies between sources.

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Offline Charge

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #413 on: April 19, 2010, 04:59:53 AM »
"this thread is nothing more than your typical Luftwhiner thread, pure and simple"

FYI

"The 190 A5 engine 1,700 PS (1,677 hp, 1,250 kW)
The 190 A8 engine 1,980 PS (1,953 hp, 1,456 kW)
wouldn't that give it more power & make it climb faster and fly faster?
If the engine's power did not offset the weight gain, why did they add it?"

That's a legit question Ardy started this thread with i.e the change in power loading vs. the effect of general weight increase on performance.

What it came to be once luftloonies popped in and allyfanboys started tossing their usual HTC approved poop is another matter.

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Offline Bronk

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #414 on: April 19, 2010, 05:14:08 AM »
"this thread is nothing more than your typical Luftwhiner thread, pure and simple"

FYI

"The 190 A5 engine 1,700 PS (1,677 hp, 1,250 kW)
The 190 A8 engine 1,980 PS (1,953 hp, 1,456 kW)
wouldn't that give it more power & make it climb faster and fly faster?
If the engine's power did not offset the weight gain, why did they add it?"

That's a legit question Ardy started this thread with i.e the change in power loading vs. the effect of general weight increase on performance.

What it came to be once luftloonies popped in and allyfanboys started tossing their usual HTC approved poop is another matter.

-C+

And HT said he and pyro would look into the weight issue... after BAUMER posted hard data.  Isn't that what we all want and not a FM designed around what pilot x said it felt like/or what it did in x situation?
« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 05:27:35 AM by Bronk »
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #415 on: April 19, 2010, 05:50:59 AM »
"this thread is nothing more than your typical Luftwhiner thread, pure and simple"

FYI

"The 190 A5 engine 1,700 PS (1,677 hp, 1,250 kW)
The 190 A8 engine 1,980 PS (1,953 hp, 1,456 kW)
wouldn't that give it more power & make it climb faster and fly faster?
If the engine's power did not offset the weight gain, why did they add it?"

That's a legit question Ardy started this thread with i.e the change in power loading vs. the effect of general weight increase on performance.

What it came to be once luftloonies popped in and allyfanboys started tossing their usual HTC approved poop is another matter.

-C+


Allyfanboys?  You really should read this thread again or have someone read it to you slowly.  No one was expousing the virtues of Allied aircraft or trying to state that Allied planes were better, this thread was pure Lufthwhiner B.S.

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Offline Stoney

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #416 on: April 19, 2010, 06:14:11 AM »
...allyfanboys started tossing their usual HTC approved poop is another matter.

Seriously???
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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #417 on: April 19, 2010, 06:18:09 AM »
Having been a member of the CAF and actually flown several WW2 aircraft, I can also judge aircraft anecdotes very well. In 1995 I got to meet several members of the flying tigers during one of their reunions. They spoke of the P-40 in glowing terms, witch differed greatly for the actual performance of the plane. So I have first hand experience in listening to and objectively analyzing pilot statements about an aircraft's performance.

Hey, I visited the CAfi n AZ just a month or two ago - I got to walk through a B-17 after they landed it. Some day, when I retire, I'd like to work there just for S's and G's.

What's your affiliation?
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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #418 on: April 19, 2010, 06:47:47 AM »
ok well then i am curious if he uses these calculations exclusively why would he care about the weight discrepancies you posted?




If you look at, for example, CFD simulation, you need to know the geometry of the body for which you're trying to get state variables. For example, you could map a pressure distribution on a body (in any state of control surface deflection) in a known flow using CFD. That particular map, however, would only tell you the flight behavior of the AC after you'd resolved it out and effected it to the vehicle (i.e. distributed-mass body in grav field). For that, i'd turn to a rigid or elastodynamic sim like ADAMS (what I used to do) or even classical analytic methods and you'd need additional properties of the a/c - like its mass distribution cited -to get the flight behavior. ADAMS, btw, was notoriously difficult for soing something like a flight vehicle because it didn't handle continuous things like a fluid flow well. It was another story if you had some sort of analytic representation of the forces that you could input as a user-defined force based on in-sim variables.

Here's the thing, though, Thor... it IS entirely possible to do virtual "testing" with the right level of analysis and specific input properties for the AC - and you might even get it right if you've done a couple of correlations with your method and know it's pitfalls. This stuff isn't the black box I think you might imagine it to be... i.e., HTC does do this crap for a living (lucky bastard) and, based on what I've seen, does it pretty well. I speak as an Aero Engineer who used to do tunnel tests at NASA Ames. While I haven't done Aero for something like 20 years (I went over to Automotive and used to do vehicle dynamics - sim, test, and correlating the two - there before crossing to the "dark side), I've been around engineering, its methods, and other technical crap long enough to have a pretty keen BS detector  - and it ain't going off in response to HTC's posts.

All that said, that's why I want to see more. Until you understand his methodology, you're really unqualified to critique it in anything more than an uninformed way. Clearly, there are different degrees of "uninformed-ness". You might want to learn a little something about some of the methods to which this group of self-congratulatory, somewhat grating, but generally intelligent and oddly enjoyable arscheklownen have linked, then come back with better questions. That's what I'm going to do - because besides the CFD and FEM stuff, there were a couple of more specific items cited that should prove informative.
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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: 190A5 vs 190A8
« Reply #419 on: April 19, 2010, 06:52:19 AM »
however i also believe that to be able to model the specifics of an aircraft you also need real world flight testing and comparative data taken by humans.  
after all if you could know everything about an aircraft from a design program then there would be no need for test pilots anymore, would there?  a computer program and all those equations will not be able to tell you exactly how a plane will behave in a stall.

This is the "virtual prototyping" dream - and it is possible. The real value of the test data is in model validation. However, once you march forward from validation to attempted prediction, yes, there is some risk.

I'd refer you to Boeing's most recent commercial jetliner. They used CAE to eliminate a lot of hardware prototyping. We do that here (in my company) as well.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 07:00:18 AM by PJ_Godzilla »
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.