Setup changes needed???

[Boxboy]

I have been thinking about this for awhile, first off small squads like ours (801) all seem to draw the cleanup jobs while the big squads enjoy the more fun parts of FSO.  One of the problems is that ALL targets have to be hit, I think a list of targets with say 75% having to be hit to fulfill mission would go a long way in getting rid of the pigpiles, like we ran into at A32 tonight.  The 75% rule would force the CIC to make decisions as to where to deploy his assets for both attack and defense.

While I realize this might casue some squads to see no action (defending a base not hit), it would hopfully lessen the chance of pigpiles on small squads and allow them a chance to be sucessful. 

Tonight we were attacked by at least 5 to 1 odds (our 4 vs 20 of them) of course we were wiped out (as we have been on serveral occassions due the same problem), this leads to the fun quotion for us going down dramatically (at least for me) and I suspect others in my squad.  It is nights like tonight that have led me to seriously consider dropping out of FSO all together (being ordered to attack alone as a mop up) since being "cannon fodder" gets old quick.

[Stoney]

The CIC didn't assign a credible amount of assets to your defensive mission, or your fellow squads didn't turn out in the numbers the CIC anticipated.  As a member of a small 4-6 squad myself, I am sympathetic.  We were overrun tonight for the same reason.

My point is that there are rules and procedures in place to keep this from happening, and the CIC in this case, chose not to follow them, or was inexperienced and didn't know any better.

[Viper61]

Boxboy understand your flustrati on.  Although not directly related to your comment here's what I saw tonight.  Also the 325th VFG had the same problem back about 2 years ago and we were getting wiped out every week.  We fixed the problem and those comments are lower in this post.

The 325th VFG had your support duty for Frame 3.  I assume your squad flew with LYNCHMOB as per the order or close by??  I assigned 2 of the 325th VFG pilots to provide close escort and more importantly communications between the Fighter Sweep (325th VFG) and your squad (801st and LYNCHMOB) since we lifted from different fields.  I know you saw Lowtec and Kuhn with your squad or close by.  As you know commo and situational awareness is everything in the FSO.  That's why I provided 2 pilots to your strike element.

We also did our best to make it to A32 to sweep ahead of you.  Your element had to do a few circles on the way to A32 because you got ahead of the sweep (325th VFG)  Half way there the 325th VFG passed an enemy strike package headed towards A113.  Lowtec got off a Spot Report on 150 and we did not engage that enemy element as I needed to get to A32 to support your efforts.  Stoney74 I hope you saw the report, I know you got hit hard at A113.  Without a doubt the enemy squad we passed radioed the same information on our position and that we were headed to A32.

About 25 miles from A32 we ran head on into a enemy squad co-alt at 27K numbering 15-20 (my estimate), just dots no IKON's.  I elected to pull the enemy defenders (figuring I had them all) away and east from A32 and relayed that info to Lowtec and to your strike package.  I continued to pull the enemy east until you made contact with the radar ring at A32 and then the enemy fighters chasing us all turned except for 4 back to A32.  Lowtec relayed that your squad you had 4 minutes to do your damage before 15-20 Brewsters would be on you.  My reports had the 110's over the A32 without any enemy contacts initially.  But the clock was ticking....

At that point the 325th VFG turned west towards A32 chasing the 4 Brewsters back to A32 but we were 35-40 miles from A32 and there was no way we were going to make in time to help the 110's and I reported that as well.  We did finally make it to A32 but after all of the 110's were downed.  The Brewsters then shot all of us down except for 3 that escaped.  For what it is worth that's what I saw and reported.  Hind sight is always 20/20 and there are things I would do differently but at the time they seemed correct.

To your point about small squads getting mauled.  The 325th VFG has the same issue a while back so we formed up with other squads to up our numbers.  Because you are right the larger squads "generally" get the better missions.  But importantly the large squad at 11-15 can handle a fight better than 4-6 guys.  Making most missions fun.  For about a year VF15 and the 325th VFG flew together and now they are a separate squad.  Currently the Iron Horsemen (4 pilots) fly with us to up our numbers.  The joining of smaller squads to form a larger squad works and it keeps us from getting wiped out every week.  This is the solution I came up with to fix the situation at my end.  There really is only 2 solutions:  Recruit personnel or combine efforts with a another smaller squad in the same boat as you.  Heck you and your squad are welcome to form with us and up the numbers the 325th VFG has the room.  And to tell you the truth there isn't any difference as you and your guys would become a "flight element" within our squad.  Which is exactly how we handled it with VF 15 and now the Iron Horsemen.  Everyone has fun and your part of a larger element to protect each other.  And you'll never have CIC duty again    A win, win for everyone.   

Your also correct about smaller squads always getting the "filler" duty in the orders.  I know as I have CIC'ed my fair share of Operations and done just that.  The fact is that I very seldom would ever place a small 4-6 man squad in charge of a 20-30 ship strike package.  I always place the large squad and CO in charge of the combined strike package or defensive mission as he has the largest element.  I am pretty sure others plan it the same way.  I do however always assign the small squads to the large squads and would never place all the small squads into a mass effort.  Small squads are great for providing recon for a larger element or close in escort or I have placed them into perked AC on occasion and had them go bomber hunting or alike.  But generally the smaller squads are filler's.

Personally I think the small squad 4-6 should be eliminated from an option and make the smallest squad 7-10.  In the old days of the FSO a 4-6 man squad was fine when there was only 100 - 125 guys in play and there was no such thing as a "25 man" squad.  Today with events pushing 500+ pilots its a lot different.  And your comments reflect that as do my actions to increase the 325th VFG numbers.  Heck at this rate in 5 years any squad manning under 25 will probably be in trouble Doesn't mean you can't play, just means you need to link up and coordinate.

Boxboy again just my 2 cents on what I saw tonight and what the 325th VFG has done to combat the small squad issue.  Hopefully you nor the 801st wont stop flying the FSO.

[Boxboy]

Well I agree that the 4-6 man squads are just wasting their time with FSO, the way it is setup and probably ought to drop out of FSO till they can bet bigger numbers.  The CIC cannot be blamed for wanting to win and using his big squads for the best and most fun missions especially since the way we do it both sides KNOW which targets will be attacked.  Also our mission was not the best since we went in piecemeal vs a vary large squad with very good planes (Brew), the piecemeal attack allowed  them to defeat us in elements while maintaining superior numbers (ie gangbang) and as far as I could tell the fighter sweep accomplished nothing and would have better served as escort, but as you say hindsight and all and "the best laid plans of mice and men oft times go astray".

[Saxman]

Tonight we were attacked by at least 5 to 1 odds (our 4 vs 20 of them)...

Don't make me bust out VMF-251's 12 to 1 Midway frame on yo' ass.

Actually, I think a better solution would be to bust up the monster squads. Eliminate the 16-21 option and larger.

[Bino]

Don't make me bust out VMF-251's 12 to 1 Midway frame on yo' ass.

Actually, I think a better solution would be to bust up the monster squads. Eliminate the 16-21 option and larger.

Forcing the big squads to split up will simply drive us away.  Yup, I'm in one of those 11-16 gangs.   

Seriously, the C-in-C can easily make sure that ~12 planes are on each mission by simply putting two smaller groups together.  It's just a simple matter of planning.  Any C-in-C who posts a mere 4 planes to CAP one of his assets has not put up a "credible" defense mission, IMHO.

[gusman]

Well 801 Sqd. FAA actually chose option "B" which was delay our attack and hit the enemy when they were refueling. The problem is I didn't have the patience to delay the attack enough and the enemy was still up and ready. It's tough circling in enemy territory at 15k. I think next time it might be better to delay taking off and sit on the ground for 20 minutes. I waited until A32 stopped flashing and then we started our attack.  A32 started flashing again while we were in bound and that's where I should have put on the brakes and loitered for a few more minutes. We attacked and I made a lousy bomb run so I circled back to strafe and then the brewsters hit us. It was over quickly  . I think our attack would have worked if we delayed 10 more minutes.

Cheers,
gus

[Nefarious]

Interesting comments in this thread.

Eliminating the 4-6 squad and moving to 7-10 might work. But where do the squads just come up with new pilots? Merging squads is great if it can be done, but surely not all of the 4-6 squads will be able to do so.

The 412th is trying to grow for pretty much the same reason. When we come against big strike packages or lots of defenders. It is tough for the 412th to live and accomplish the objectives.

The 412th and another squad may have a solution by merging, its being discussed now.

[TUK]

We (WD40) merged with the (Free Spirits) about a month ago.. We were both, low number squads.  Ever since the merger we have had a blast..
The merger gave me 2 new officers, and 6 more players that show up every friday...   

[Saxman]

There's other problems in merging, including differing opinions on the direction of the squad (IE: some guys see AH as a big social party, even in FSO, while others want to be more disciplined) or which squad folds up shop to join the other.

This is why VMF-251 doesn't often accept non-roster volunteers on FSO night even if we need the numbers. I'd rather fly with 6 disciplined guys, than 16 that fly as a gaggle.

Don't mistake what I said earlier. I'm not necessarily advocating change in the squadron types, I'm just saying I believe eliminating the 16-21 and above would work out much better than eliminating the 4-6. However as pointed out, it's ultimately up to the CiC to ensure the smaller squadron is properly supported by another larger group.

[ImADot]

I'm in agreement with much of what's been said.  While it's nice to see your MA squad's name in the orders and the logs, if your squad is small...well it's already been said what happens.  Still, FSO is about cooperation and doing what you've been tasked to do in support of the CiC's overall plan.  I was invited to fly with the 325th over a year ago and have had a blast.  I just started rebuilding my MA squad, and we all (4 or us  ) are wearing the uniform of the Checkertails in FSO.  As Viper61 said, it's a win-win.  I don't have to worry about CiC duty - I am not a tactician; I'm a warm body borrowing the crew-chief's airplane to hopefully bring back in one piece.  Now that the Checkertails is a larger squad, we see less "cleanup" or "suicide" missions.

But even if you decide to not merge into a larger squad, you can still be successful.  As has been said, the CiC should pair smaller squads with larger squads and not task them to twist in the wind all alone.  When you get your orders, contact the CO of the squad(s) you will be fighting with.  Coordinate efforts and keep communication fluid during the frame.  If you think you're getting the bad draw, politely ask the CiC the reason and if he could change your role for the frame.

In either case, flying FSO is much more fun and demanding than the endless mind-numbing never-changing action in the Main Arenas.  Some find it boring for 95% of the time, but for me it's fun flying in formation with 15 other guys and hooking up with other squads to fly as a package in a well-coordinated mission.

[Hamltnblue]

The 353rd has combined with another squad in the past for Just FSO. Outside FSO the squad remains a separate unit. There are also squads that only fly in the MA that have a few pilots that would like to fly FSO that may want to do the same.
The way you get around the squads being broken up is that both small squads simply run under one or the other's name for the event.  Once in the air though they still ride and communicate with their own squads within the assignment.

[canacka]

My FSO squad is made up from 2 different MA squads.  71 Squadron RAF and the USMC guys, hence USMC/71 Squadron.  It's great to fly with guys that you normally don't fly with and makes for getting advise from others that you don't normally fly with.  It's a good idea to link with another if you feel your numbers are too low, and since your posting here, you must love flying FSO otherwise you would just quit.  Try joining with another squad that has low numbers and it might make it that much more fun for ya! 

[Tarstar]

Actually, I think a better solution would be to bust up the monster squads. Eliminate the 16-21 option and larger.

NOT

[WxMan]

I'm just saying I believe eliminating the 16-21 and above would work out much better than eliminating the 4-6.

  Rubbish

The reasons larger squads fare better in FSO is not just numbers. They communicate well within their squadron and act in concert. There is no reason if 3..4...or 5 smaller squadrons grouped together can't achieve the same success. The keys are communication and teamwork. Too often Squads in FSO act as lone wolves without the coordination of the group. Therefore they decide their own fate. The CiC's are required to issue orders in advance to allow proper communication among the squadrons. All it takes is someone in these groups to step up and initiate contact prior to and maintain it during the event. I'll assure you that if this were done more frequently, a lot of the smaller squadrons would enjoy their time in FSO.