Author Topic: "that" apache video  (Read 3759 times)

Offline Motherland

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8110
Re: "that" apache video
« Reply #90 on: April 06, 2010, 07:44:02 PM »
Outside of the realm of humanitarianism, RoE, whether the decisions made were justifiable, whether the Iraqi civilians were idiots, and what have you...

If I'm not mistaken, the goal of the invasion of Iraq (considering the lack of WMD's) was to set up a free, humane parliamentary democracy both on the behalf of the Iraqi people and for the sake of having a stable, pro-Western state in the Middle East to serve as an example for all... and for the sake of the interest that would serve the US, having an anti-extremist state in the Middle East.

In the current state, having high Iraqi confidence in its democratic government, enough to allow it to become powerful enough to function on its own and maintain security in Iraq, is essential to achieving achieving a level of security for the United States, while at the same time allowing for the toning down of the use of the American military for this purpose, because, like it or not, the American people get tired of war.

Since the current Iraqi regime was set up by Westerners, it's naturally going to be associated with us, for better or for worse.

Trying to completely exterminate extremism in Iraq & Afghanistan is silly... years and years later there's still extremism in Northern Ireland and Southeast Asia. The only practical way to achieve anything is to have the people of this region police themselves and drive their own people out, place trust in their governments, and trust in that what the Westerners have in mind for them is really the best option.

So it's not a war of killing the enemy... it's a war of public opinion. How many terrorists are killed is not so much what is important, it's who the average Iraqi perceives as being fighting for their interest... and the terrorists have home field advantage... it's naturally an up hill battle.

Now's a time of particular political turmoil with contested parliamentary elections in Iraq and the cluster#$@% that is President Karzai in Afghanistan. The people are undoubtedly, and not unjustifiably, becoming less trusting and more fed up with the governments that the west has set up, and perhaps even the democratic process itself.

The last thing that's going to make them say, 'hey maybe this is a good idea afterall, let's place more trust in power in these Western systems' is a bunch of their innocent countrymen being lit up by Americans. So really what's accomplished is nothing, unless you've got money to be made dealing arms to extremists...

Just a teenaged American's take on the situation...

Vietnam, Beriut, Mogadishu, etc...etc...etc...all proved that to be the correct way to proceed...when the enemy has no one to be accountable to for who they kill and how, there is only one way to beat them, and it isn't by being polite.
Forgive me if I'm wrong but... Vietnam is right now a Communist state, and Somalia is a failed one. It would hardly seem that the US strategy worked in those situations.
Unless the real goal of these conflicts was for American corporations have a cheap place to make cotton tee-shirts and overpriced sneakers, I guess.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 07:57:46 PM by Motherland »

Offline Die Hard

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2205
Re: "that" apache video
« Reply #91 on: April 06, 2010, 07:46:22 PM »
That's not what he said at all.  Again and again, you continually enter the conversation determined to filter content to your disposition. 

Sure sounds like that's what he said to me.

I think that kazaa and die hard need to get out in the real world and try it on for size before they start passing judgement on folks who are in combat.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi

Offline rabbidrabbit

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3904
Re: "that" apache video
« Reply #92 on: April 06, 2010, 07:53:11 PM »
Sure sounds like that's what he said to me.


He is saying that you lack the wisdom that comes from life experience to fairly judge these types of situations.  He, like most others reading this thread, draw that assessment from your continual display of generalized ignorance of what is occurring and its' context.   FYI...  people sue the military all the time.

Offline mechanic

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11294
Re: "that" apache video
« Reply #93 on: April 06, 2010, 08:18:57 PM »
I don't know if the apache pilots did the right thing in the situation or not. I do know that in 500 years the people who will be remembered as heroes are the insurgents. People will sit round camp fires and tell stories of how valient men dressed in cloth stood up to techno-terminators and steel killing machines. How they kept fighting for what they believed in despite impossible odds.
 Don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting them, I am remaining neutral in this whole mess with a strong desire to see our boys back home and safe. Suicide bombers and terrorists are a very different thing to the average Insurgent with an ak47 fighting for 'his people and beliefs'. All I am saying is when our time has become a history book we are going to look like murderous fiends and they are going to look like brave men.


 
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 08:22:11 PM by mechanic »
And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.

Offline ink

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11274
Re: "that" apache video
« Reply #94 on: April 06, 2010, 08:29:33 PM »
I don't know if the apache pilots did the right thing in the situation or not. I do know that in 500 years the people who will be remembered as heroes are the insurgents. People will sit round camp fires and tell stories of how valient men dressed in cloth stood up to techno-terminators and steel killing machines. How they kept fighting for what they believed in despite impossible odds.
 Don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting them, I am remaining neutral in this whole mess with a strong desire to see our boys back home and safe. Suicide bombers and terrorists are a very different thing to the average Insurgent with an ak47 fighting for 'his people and beliefs'. All I am saying is when our time has become a history book we are going to look like murderous fiends and they are going to look like brave men.


 

probably because its the truth.

this whole "war" is bullsoup, the ones who are guilty will get there just due, in the end. on both sides.

and I have a feeling the gunner in that apache, will be VERY sorry for his actions.

for no man has control over you and your actions, and when we are standing in front of our creator we can not say, well they made me do it, or I was just doing my job.... every one will receive there just due.

Offline Die Hard

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2205
Re: "that" apache video
« Reply #95 on: April 06, 2010, 08:30:33 PM »
He is saying that you lack the wisdom that comes from life experience to fairly judge these types of situations.  He, like most others reading this thread, draw that assessment from your continual display of generalized ignorance of what is occurring and its' context.   FYI...  people sue the military all the time.

That's your interpretation, and unlike you I don't presume to speak for "most others reading this thread".


Heh, yeah. Anyone can sue the military, but winning... Ever since Feres v. United States the military has been de facto above the law.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi

Offline USRanger

  • AvA Staff Member
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10325
      • BoP Home
Re: "that" apache video
« Reply #96 on: April 06, 2010, 08:35:20 PM »
I don't know if the apache pilots did the right thing in the situation or not. I do know that in 500 years the people who will be remembered as heroes are the insurgents. People will sit round camp fires and tell stories of how valient men dressed in cloth stood up to techno-terminators and steel killing machines. How they kept fighting for what they believed in despite impossible odds.
 Don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting them, I am remaining neutral in this whole mess with a strong desire to see our boys back home and safe. Suicide bombers and terrorists are a very different thing to the average Insurgent with an ak47 fighting for 'his people and beliefs'. All I am saying is when our time has become a history book we are going to look like murderous fiends and they are going to look like brave men.


 

As a veteran of the first year of both A'stan & Iraq, I must say this is the best post in this thread.  As for speaking about this incident, I'll pass.  I get a little fired up in these types of discussions when 99% of the people posting/talking have never been over there.  I'm content with just kicking back & letting you fine folks enjoy your freedom to judge this incident & others like it.
Axis vs Allies Staff Member
☩ JG11 Sonderstaffel ☩
Flying 'Black[Death] 10' ☩JG11☩

Only the Proud, Only the Strong Ne Desit Virtus

Offline Die Hard

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2205
Re: "that" apache video
« Reply #97 on: April 06, 2010, 08:47:20 PM »
Thank you.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi

Offline allaire

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1239
Re: "that" apache video
« Reply #98 on: April 06, 2010, 08:48:55 PM »
I have been around the military most of my life, 16 years of my fathers 20 years Air Force career, and I enlisted in the Arkansas Army National Guard.  To tell the truth about things I injured my knee for the forth time and it was the most severe to date, hyperextension of the knee resulting in patellar dislocation, I was given the choice of recycling or separating.  I chose to separate from the fear of injuring it again and possibly permanently disabling it.  I feel for the people who choose to volunteer for military service and deploy to combat zones.  They get my respect.

I said that to say this.  What pisses me off more than anything are these people that volunteered for military service and then either refuse to deploy or do anything in their power to not deploy.  That is almost as bad as the arm chair generals that want to look at something and say "Oh my god I can't believe that they are so blood thirsty that they fire on civilians without just cause."  The US military tries to respect their religion by trying their best to not damage mosques.  I mean we could be giant sweethearts and issue shotguns with bacon-shells just to cause people that are hit with them to be unclean; which if not purified before death means they are going to hell.

Here is a test for you.  Find a picture of a group of Iraqi, Afghani, or Palastiniani and I want you to pick out who is armed, who is a civilian, who is wearing a suicide belt/vest, or who has a detonator for an IED.  It is impossible unless you see a weapon to determine who is armed or unarmed.  As for the others good luck.  What makes that even hard is you have to decide in only seconds if that person with the AK is friendly or if he is about to open fire on you and your squad/platoon killing as many people as possible before he dies.  Which serves him just fine since he died in combat against the "infidel" and he goes to heaven and get 72 virgins.
"I drank what?" -Socrates

Offline minke

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 619
Re: "that" apache video
« Reply #99 on: April 06, 2010, 08:53:29 PM »
In other words you feel that no one has the right to criticize the acts of a soldier unless they've themselves have served in combat. I find that argument not only preposterous, undemocratic and elitist, but also dangerous. It is more than enough that the military is above the law and cannot be sued; they should hardly also be above public scrutiny.

I think you will find that almost all democratic countries found their freedom through armed conflict at some point in their history, so I hope you enjoy your freedom to condemn the armed forces. Watching a clip that has been chopped and sensationalised for effect, then taking the moral high ground with poorly construed ideas, makes you look.... well people can always draw conclusions from that.

Your 'public scrutiny' should be directed at the elected officials that deployed them there in the first place

Offline dev1ant

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 186
Re: "that" apache video
« Reply #100 on: April 06, 2010, 09:28:57 PM »
I don't know if the apache pilots did the right thing in the situation or not. I do know that in 500 years the people who will be remembered as heroes are the insurgents. People will sit round camp fires and tell stories of how valient men dressed in cloth stood up to techno-terminators and steel killing machines. How they kept fighting for what they believed in despite impossible odds.
 Don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting them, I am remaining neutral in this whole mess with a strong desire to see our boys back home and safe. Suicide bombers and terrorists are a very different thing to the average Insurgent with an ak47 fighting for 'his people and beliefs'. All I am saying is when our time has become a history book we are going to look like murderous fiends and they are going to look like brave men.


 

Standing up to an AH-64 Apache with an AK47 dressed in cloth is not brave or valiant, it's Darwinism in action. 
Deviant

Offline Tango

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1421
      • http://www.simpilots.org/
Re: "that" apache video
« Reply #101 on: April 06, 2010, 09:32:20 PM »
Civilised people find ways not to fight wars.

Chamberlin tried that and look where that got them.
Tango78
78th Razorbacks
Historical Air Combat Group

Offline Vulcan

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9853
Re: "that" apache video
« Reply #102 on: April 06, 2010, 10:18:07 PM »
As a veteran of the first year of both A'stan & Iraq, I must say this is the best post in this thread.  As for speaking about this incident, I'll pass.  I get a little fired up in these types of discussions when 99% of the people posting/talking have never been over there.  I'm content with just kicking back & letting you fine folks enjoy your freedom to judge this incident & others like it.

Reason I posted was to hear from people like yourself. I'd appreciate it if you took the time to have a look at the video and write down your thoughts.

Offline Flipperk

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1185
Re: "that" apache video
« Reply #103 on: April 06, 2010, 10:54:13 PM »
In other words you feel that no one has the right to criticize the acts of a soldier unless they've themselves have served in combat. I find that argument not only preposterous, undemocratic and elitist, but also dangerous. It is more than enough that the military is above the law and cannot be sued; they should hardly also be above public scrutiny.


Why not? You sit here with a sandwich in your hand with nothing more dangerous than going to work everyday and yet you feel like you have enough humanitarian experience in your life to speak what is right and what is wrong with what happens in a warzone?

That is like telling Skuzzy, Pyro, and HiTech how to code their game when you have never coded a game before.

It is 2 Cents or .02 Dollars...NOT .02 Cents!

Offline USRanger

  • AvA Staff Member
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10325
      • BoP Home
Re: "that" apache video
« Reply #104 on: April 06, 2010, 11:06:37 PM »
Reason I posted was to hear from people like yourself. I'd appreciate it if you took the time to have a look at the video and write down your thoughts.

I watched the video.  Let me think on it tonight to collect my thoughts on how I would like to respond.
Axis vs Allies Staff Member
☩ JG11 Sonderstaffel ☩
Flying 'Black[Death] 10' ☩JG11☩

Only the Proud, Only the Strong Ne Desit Virtus