Supercharging on the 109's

[Vermillion]

Yes, and the threads conclusion was that beyond a few (less than 10) K6's nothing was produced beyond that.

I don't remember any Messerschmitt test data, but I have seen the posted test data of the FW factory tests of the Ta-152C prototype with the DB603L, with both MW50 and GM1. I am the one that scanned it and posted it. Its here: http://www.vermin.net/ta152/ta152-3.jpg

Was there both a DB603L and a DB605L ?

I am at work and don't have any of my References, but here is what I have turned up from the net {which may or may not be accurate}

Just from a quick search of the net, I have found a reference of a prototype of the He219 that had DB603L's.

And I found this on the whole 109K Series thing.

 

Contrary to what has been written, no other variant of the K reached production or operational status. The rumors of use of the K-6 with its two Mk 108 wing cannon and the K-14 with the long anticipated DB605L are just that: rumors. The K-6 aircraft reached the prototype and testing stage but never entered production and no known operational test units were set up. The DB605L never got its problems sorted out and the test aircraft remained just that. All losses and strength returns that are know for 1945 show only K-4 aircraft.

at http://pol1.prairie.ca/~bigbear/khis.htm

Of course it all comes back to my first question. Are discussing production engines or prototype/one off's ?



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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Pyro]

The reason the P-47, P-38, etc. are smooth like that is because they're turbocharged.  On the Daimlers, they do look different from other power curves, but they still have to change gears, and they still don't maintain power with altitude.



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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations

[juzz]

Vermillion: Hand-built prototypes, for everyone except Russia and Japan!  

[Nath-BDP]

Jumo 213EB, Ta 152H-1/Fw 190D-13.

There were K-14s albeit a very small number of them.

[Vermillion]

If any of you guys have found some new evidence/documentation on the K14 I would love to see it, but everything I have seen up to this point said they never progressed beyond prototypes/blueprints

Hehe Juzz thats about right   What would you say if I told you that the Japanese produced an extremely innovative 440Mph+ fighter prototype in 2nd half of 1943 but shelved it when the prototype crashed on its 5th flight?

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[MC202]

juzz Said:
> Vermillion: Hand-built prototypes, for
> everyone except Russia and Japan!

:-)  Italy will rule the air in '43

M.C. 205N, Re2005, P.119, RO58 (five MG151's and one 12.7mg), P113 (a bomber with six 20m cannon and four 12.7mgs in powered turretts and a 10,560bomb load), M.B.902, flocks of little wood built S.A.I.403's...

Well, I can wish :-)

For my real perk choice, a P-40Q-2 or 3, for late war stall-fighter, 20,000ft in 4.8min, 422@ 20,500ft, and better vision than bubble canopy P-51/P-47's.

Not "Uber" at all.

MC202
Dino in Reno

[juzz]

Vermilion; was that the one with two engines - one mid-mounted, coupled to the conventional nose-mounted engine to drive a single prop?

[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 10-20-2000).]

[Jigster]

 

Originally posted by chisel:
Nice to see the misinformation flowing freely.


Hydraulic clutch oil should heat up more at low altitude due to slippage.

Gasoline injection systems have little to do with Diesel injection (which incidentally, has been around a heck of alot longer)

Funked: Give the Germans 130 octane for the BMW/DB engine, Raise CR, boost, change the timing a bit. Then compare apples to apples.

I will grant you they were behind in exhaust driven supercharger technology tho,

First use of the injection pump for diesel engines was in the early 1920's. They weren't much smaller then the auxillary feed systems that made diesel engines useless in the first place.

First production of diesel engine that was small enough to fit in a vehicle was 1936.

The DB direct fuel port injection engine was prefected slightly before a practical set up for a diesel engine. For example, Me-109 was flying in 1935.

The systems were quite the simular...a mechanical driven system that providede a pressure feed (in the DB case, this allowed inverted operation) reduced the size of the diesel engine, by removing auxillary pressure systems for gravity feed.

It was rumored that a consultant for Catapillar was invited to view the DB production plant, saw the injection system, took what he learned back to US where they made there own system and prefected it.

The Diesel (compression) engine has been around longer then the gas engine. But Fuel injection was first developed for gas engines. It lead to smaller diesel engines, and by the end of WWII, most trucks, etc had them because of the economy, power, and durability. The exception are the Catapillar crawlers. The ones US engineers used had diesel engines, a rarity  

But, Nearly every vehicle prior to the advancement of WWII was gasoline.

- Jig

Btw Ram I was kidding  

[Vermillion]

Yup Juzz, thats it !

Kawasaki Ki-64

powered by the Kawasaki Ha-201 (2,350hp) which was essentially two Ha-40 twelve cylinder liquid cooled engines monted in tandem for and aft of the pilots cockpit, and drove two contra-rotating three-blade propellors.

Kind of a single engine concept, combined with a P-39.

Empty weight at 8,929 lbs and loaded at 11,244 lbs. Wingloading  was 37.3 lbs/sq ft, and power loading of 4.78 lbs/hp

Armament was 4 x HO-5 20mm cannons

Max speed was 429mph at 16,405 ft, and time to climb to 5k meters was 5.5 minutes.

This plane was as fast as a Mustang, similar if slightly better wingloading, much better acceleration and climb, and it had seriously better armament. Plus... NO torque !

And it would have been available in mid to late 1944, contemporary with the Mustang.

It could have changed the war, if they Japanese would have pursued the project further.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[chisel]

That DB engine is running a Bosch pump. Bosch went into series production in 1937 with the Gasoline injection system. 109 didnt fly with DB engine (109D) till 1937.

And Im 99% certain it was direct injection not port injection.

Robert Bosch did the Diesel Injection pump in 1927.

Cat stole the precombustion chamber from Sauer(sp?) in Switzerland.  

Didnt Cat have a hand in that boat anchor that was the Chev 6.2?


[This message has been edited by chisel (edited 10-20-2000).]

[Zigrat]

after midway, nothing could change the war vermillion
 only way for japs to win was a short war. and midway enssured the war wasnt gonna be short.

[chisel]

Pyro

I got no problem with your power curves but,

How does an infinitely variable hydraulic coupler 'change gears'?

[Minotaur]

 

Originally posted by chisel:
Pyro

I got no problem with your power curves but,

How does an infinitely variable hydraulic coupler 'change gears'?

I bet that it has more to do with the shifting gear process than the actual shifting of the gears.  

I am thinking it is like the "torque converter" for an automobile transmission.  The torque converter does not shift gears.  It allows the gears to be shifted in the transmission by providing an hydraulic cushion between the engine and the transmission.  



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Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"Anyway, more golf..."
Humble