Black outs for lack of oxygen

[Krusty]

Folks cite 14k mountain climbers... But they don't say how long those people trained at high alts, how high they lived, etc. I'm in Denver. Mile high even in the city. First moving here was tough. I used to like running. I'd run as a kid from point A to point B. Here I could barely go a couple of blocks without wheezing. You get acclimated over the years, but that's only to normal activity! In a gasping-for-life dogfight pulling Gs and being ever-alert, forget about it! No contest! You'd never survive. I've done mountains as well, done a 10k and a 14k (Bierstadt) but only after several years of exercising at this level. Visit Kansas City and it feels like Superman arriving on Earth from Krypton.

Everyday pilots training and acclimated for sea level and lower alts would suffer heavily if they had to fight without O2 above 12-14k. Doesn't matter how well you train and exercise because your well-trained muscles just don't have the oxygen to function and your brain shuts down. You can't focus, can't concentrate, can't do simple calculations, etc. It's like being drunk. The Air Force did many tests on this just before the war in regards to altitude and oxygen. Had folks try performing tasks in a vacuum chamber with and without supplemental oxygen masks.

[Karnak]

I-16  for starters.

I-16 had an oxygen system by the time WWII happened, at least that is what was posted when it came up in the last post on this subject.

[gyrene81]

Anyway those smarter than I would have to figure that out, but it would be a fun addition for events except for a few that would cry about it. Most would welcome the new element to events.

I'd be       for sure if it was something that could be implemented.

[Karnak]

You have to dig deep for the information but yes...many early war aircraft didn't have oxygen systems and some mid-late war didn't as well. I'm not totally positive but, I don't believe the I-16, Brewster, A6M2, D3A1, 109E4, P-40B, IL2, LA5, F4F4, FM2 and a couple of others had oxygen systems...or reliable oxygen systems that allowed extended flight times above 15000 feet. Have to dig around to find out exactly which aircraft.

Almost all of those had oxygen systems.

[daddog]

Everyday pilots training and acclimated for sea level and lower alts would suffer heavily if they had to fight without O2 above 12-14k. Doesn't matter how well you train and exercise because your well-trained muscles just don't have the oxygen to function and your brain shuts down. You can't focus, can't concentrate, can't do simple calculations, etc. It's like being drunk.

No doubt someone flying at 30k and lost their oxygen system would be in a world of hurt in a hurry.

[Krusty]

I-16 had an oxygen system by the time WWII happened, at least that is what was posted when it came up in the last post on this subject.

Almost all of those had oxygen systems.

Designed with them? Or actually flew with them? Many planes were in disrepair, systems did not work. In the BOB I've read more than one report of a plane trying to keep up with a formation but falling behind because the landing gear kept extending. The poor pilot had to keep retracting them every minute or two.

Imagine combat like that!

I would think the ever-elitist IJN would keep the O2 working on their zeros, but Flying Tigers went into combat without functioning gunsights most times. Many soviet planes that were designed to have certain things never flew with them. Pilots in the field just yanked the crappy unreliable soviet-made parts out and flew without them. Most soviet units didn't have working radios til US lend-lease planes showed up. They would pull out factory-installed guns (which is why our P-39Q has a no-wing-guns option, by the way) and other gear. They rarely ever got above 12k most times, so with the exception of the high alt MiGs, the Pe-3s, I'd say most flew without working O2 equipment.

US planes were the same in some cases. I don't know about F4F4s, but I've read more than a few comments about them not needing to refill O2, or not having the supplies to refill O2 containers in many cases. EDIT: For some reason P-40s come to mind in this example.

[Krusty]

No doubt someone flying at 30k and lost their oxygen system would be in a world of hurt in a hurry.

That's the extreme. At 30K they still had problems even when breathing through O2 masks. I think they'd have basic problems even at 14-15k.

[BaldEagl]

I'd like to see the oxygen system modeled as a subsystem that can be damaged.  Get a hole in your oxygen line and if you're at altitude the pilot would start blacking out or something that would be alleviated by getting down to a lower altitude. 

That would be one way to get the Rooks down... go for the O2 system.   

Folks cite 14k mountain climbers... But they don't say how long those people trained at high alts, how high they lived, etc. I'm in Denver. Mile high even in the city. First moving here was tough. I used to like running. I'd run as a kid from point A to point B. Here I could barely go a couple of blocks without wheezing. You get acclimated over the years, but that's only to normal activity! In a gasping-for-life dogfight pulling Gs and being ever-alert, forget about it! No contest! You'd never survive. I've done mountains as well, done a 10k and a 14k (Bierstadt) but only after several years of exercising at this level. Visit Kansas City and it feels like Superman arriving on Earth from Krypton.

I'm from Minnesota; typical altitude 1500'.  When I had a job and money I'd head west to the mountains at least once or twice a year to go camping and off-roading in my Jeep.  Colorado, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, etc.  I've spent a lot of time at altitudes of 8000' + and never had any difficulty aclimating.

[Stoney]

Just to expound a little...

In PTO, especially earlier in the war, oxygen (even though available) was not used very much at all by pilots.  The IJA/IJN especially were routinely flying without oxygen.  Allied pilots flew without using it as well, since most of the action was below the oxygen use level.  Regardless, this is merely an idea for a setting for special events, and not something to fundamentally alter the way we fly AH2.

[LLogann]

That's because at 8k there is little to no oxygen deprivation. 

I've spent a lot of time at altitudes of 8000' + and never had any difficulty aclimating.

A great way to understand altitude sickness would be to go to a tourism site for a county like Peru........  Peru has so many elavations, it is national policy to explain the differences and issues of human's at different altitudes. 

HOWEVER........ Mountain climbers, rock climbers, the casual hiker, blah blah blah............  Have little or nothing to do with what happens to a uncompressed pilot going from 5k to 20k.............


Just saying.

[Miska]

WWI recon pilots (and the scouts who hunted them) trained to fly without oxygen up to 15-20k.  When they got above that, they started developing the first compressed air bottled systems.

[AirFlyer]

I know the A6M2 had an O2 tank on the starboard side behind the pilot seat, so it has the system implemented into. Now whether these were constantly kept in check or not I haven't a clue, but I would guess during the beginning of the war they were as needed and that declined as Japan's war effort became more and more well... cratered.

[Traveler]

The problem of breathing at altitude is a two fold problem.  One there is less oxygen  and more importantly there is less pressure.  Atmospheric pressure is about 14.7 PSI at sea level.   It’s much less above 15K and that’s the main problem with breathing at altitude.

The human lung was designed to function properly at 14.7 PSI or there abouts.  When the pressure is less then or for that matter greater then 14.7 PSI.   The body can not exchange O2 and Co2 properly and in the case of less presure the O2 is not pressed into the blood in the lungs. There is less O2 in the blood supply to the brain.

Now consider this, remember the Concord flying along at 60,000. feet.  If you had a loss of cabin pressure at 60K and the oxygen masks deployed and you managed to put one on, the sourounding atmospheric pressure would be so low that even if you inhaled 100% oxygen. It would not be pressed into your blood streem because the pressure is just to low.  Now even if the autopilot took over and started a rapid decent manuver to get you down to say 28 thousand feet so you could actually start to breath.  The maximum decent rate for the Concord programmed into it’s flight computers was 5000 a min.  It would take 4 minutes just to get to 40,000 feet.  You need to get below 28K.  American Heart Association says your brain dead after 5 min. and dead after 6min.  So now you have a plane load of people that are either dead or brain damaged.

That’s why the astronuts wear space suites,  to provide an atmospheric pressure of 14.7 PSI. 

[Karnak]

Designed with them? Or actually flew with them? Many planes were in disrepair, systems did not work.

Yes, but we get a factory fresh aircraft every time we launch.

In the BOB I've read more than one report of a plane trying to keep up with a formation but falling behind because the landing gear kept extending. The poor pilot had to keep retracting them every minute or two.

Imagine combat like that!

Yes.  So fun.  Losing before even getting to the fight.

I would think the ever-elitist IJN would keep the O2 working on their zeros, but Flying Tigers went into combat without functioning gunsights most times. Many soviet planes that were designed to have certain things never flew with them. Pilots in the field just yanked the crappy unreliable soviet-made parts out and flew without them. Most soviet units didn't have working radios til US lend-lease planes showed up. They would pull out factory-installed guns (which is why our P-39Q has a no-wing-guns option, by the way) and other gear. They rarely ever got above 12k most times, so with the exception of the high alt MiGs, the Pe-3s, I'd say most flew without working O2 equipment.

US planes were the same in some cases. I don't know about F4F4s, but I've read more than a few comments about them not needing to refill O2, or not having the supplies to refill O2 containers in many cases. EDIT: For some reason P-40s come to mind in this example.

We don't get field mods in AH.  Ripping out the oxygen gear in a Spit XVI would make a lot of sense in AH as most never get near the altitude it is carried for, but that isn't and shouldn't be allowed.

[Simba]

In the days when Pontius was a pilot, sorties lasted only 2-3 hours and no oxygen was carried for aircrew, the great ace James McCudden engaged and downed German two-seaters flying at 20,000 feet. Gave him dreadful headaches doing it though and, being an experienced fitter raised from the ranks, he'd tuned his SE5a's engine to give it a service ceiling 2-3,000 feet higher than the standard issue.

Another medical problem that arose from 'fast climb and faster dive' was the effect of differential air pressure on aircrew's ear-drums. I had the honour a few years ago to meet and chat with the great test pilot Neville Duke, who was introduced to me by his friend Nick Berryman with the comment 'you'll have to speak up, the old bugger's deaf as a post after all that zooming about up 'n' down', he should've stuck to slower kites like my old Walrus.' Rapid extreme altitude changes without the benefit of cabin pressurisation can even give rise to symptoms of 'the bends'.

And the effect on the pilot depends on the fitness of that particular pilot, so modelling anoxia would have to allow for this variable to be realistic and fair. So, nice idea but I reckon it's a non-starter.

<ponders the idea of modelling variable sound caused by ear-wax and syringing it out>