F4U and stall fights

[funked]

Minotaur, you can find guys who will make comments like Yeager's about every frikkin plane in the war!

Also Yeager is a stick&rudder guy.  He's not an engineer and he's not exactly what you'd call a brain surgeon on the IQ scale either.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 12-06-1999).]

[wells]

I think Chuck would be right if he's talkin about a P-51 over Germany that's burned off 1/2 it's fuel!

[drdoyo]

Hey Minotaur,

I heard Chuck answer the question, at the "Heritage Days" airshow in Clark County Indiana in 94, "Which plane is better, the F4U or the P-51". His answer was "I'll not answer that question". If you could have heard the tones when he said it, and went on about why, He was clearly biased to the -51 and would not venture to pit one bird against the other (he WAS standing in a hanger that an almost fully restored FG-1D was housed in, with the pilot who flew both a Mustang (Hurry Home Honey), and the FG-1D, as well as a T-28 and P-47D (Tarheel Hal)=> ).

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Drdoyo, Lt. J.G.
VF-17 the Jolly Rogers
8X

[Flathat]

Dunno, about stallfights, but I sure had fun Friday night trying to coax my staggering Hog over the mountains into Rookland, loaded with rockets, a drop tank and 1000 lb. of HATE(tm).

Henceforth, all my Corsairs will be named "Hannibal".  

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Flathat
'Black Dahlia'
No10 RNAS "The Black Flight"
Angel on your wing, devil on your tail

[Jinx]

First, I love the F4U!

I think we have a good first implementation of the F4U as compared to the other planes. Remember that this is still beta and that there are a few things that needs work on the flight models for all the planes. One thing that effects the Corsairs handling more then the other planes is the understated torque, most all the effects of the prop and engine are modeled in AH, but not anywhere near realistic levels. I would like to see it turned up, but I can see how that could be a problem for the new guy, turning on the engine at full throttle and promptly flipping his new ride on its back.

That said, the F4U was made as a carrier fighter, not the most forgiving, but still, it was flown in that roll. What that implies are things like very low stall speed and very good low speed handling. The thing that can’t be done in real life is gunning the engine from idle to WEP at a hundred knots and expecting it keep flying.

I don’t expect to sustain a turn inside a spit with the hawg, but I do expect to outmaneuver it. Using E fighting tactics and the strong points of its flight characteristics, low speed handling, vertical moves, acceleration, deceleration, roll rate, effective rudder, flaps and so on. My point is, don’t be surprised if a plane that can’t flat out outturn you, win over you in a turn fight.
 
   -Jinx
   The Flying Pigs



[This message has been edited by Jinx (edited 12-14-1999).]

[Hangtime]

Ho! Ho! UMBRAGE1  OUTRAAGE!!  

>>>>It seems very docile at low speed and high AoA. It zooms till 0 speed, then reverses by itself. A little stall horn, but that's it. No sign of possible spin. Is this really the famous laminar wing, of which I heard many times that it is not suited for slow flying<<

Jeeze... hristo.. u talkin about the Mustang in THIS sim?? hehhehheeee.

I think mebbe you should fly and die in the AH paper stang fer about 30 sorties. The stang don't live longer than moments in the overpopulated weed height circle jerks; yet I find myself constantly amazed at the incredible durability and manuverabilty of the FW's slashing about thru the furballs, ringing up kills like a cash register at Macy's xmas eve..  

Further; we don't get early war cammo like you LW boys.. so every time I go low its like sombody turned a light on in yer gunsite. When u go low; all I see in mine is HT's gawdamed sheep! (harumph; sputter, sniff,sniff)

...and YAH; dammit the sheep here are overmodeled! (hang looks furtively around)

>>If you lose speed in Pony, better have some alt below you. After all it is a heavy plane with moderate engine power, and should behave as such.<<

Yah got that part right hristo.. can't tell yah how many times in AH I've had it demonstrated.. in spades to my chagrin. I think the pony in AH is dead on there too.



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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8

[indian]

I rhink from what I have read about the F4U is that the one we have now is alittle more forgiving then the real one was. In real life it had a very unforgiving stall. It has to be flown fast closer to 300k then 100, Landing gear doors were the dive brakes. The corsair could out turn anything instantly but could not sustain the turn could out climb anything in the pacific, no record ive seen or heard of firing guns at germans did fly in combat over the big battle ship (not bizmark the other big one British corsairs). The F4U had a 13:1 kill ratio. And in the soccer war shot down a P51 and 2 FG-1D's.

The Corsair we have here doesnt show the torque on taxi that it should, it was called the ensign ellimenator. Americas Hundred Thousand says something like it was a hand full to fly constant trim adjustments where nessecary. One F4U-1D was award a citation for most reliable ariplane it had it varnished in the instrument panel number 122 of squadron 111 (i may have missed squad number). The plane should be harder to fly when it is tweaked but not to much. I do believe the climb rate is a little low. acceleration might be alittle slow but the plane is still good and fun to fly. It should be alot more durable in my opinion. It should not ever stall fight it is a boom and zoom plane. It will out roll all but the 190's and once lerned out brake turn anyhting else also. It will turn fight a P51 and win properly flown.

In case you havent figured it out yet I love the F4U and was very sad to hear of cavanaugh's being envovled in the crash at osh kosh. Enough for now.

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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
  Cherokee Indian
My Homepage
Where you can find the Key Commands in  files for Word6 Wordpad and text mode.

indians Homepage

Aces High Word6 and Wordpad Doc's available on my web site.

[juzz]

Corsair got a Mig kill in Korea too didn't it?

[Hangtime]

and oh yea.. I'm with mino's comments regarding Chuck:

>>>"The 51 was superior to almost all the planes it encountered. It was faster, climbed and turned better. It was often underestimated". Obviously Chuck is biased, but I believe his experience justifies his comments much more than many comments I have read in this forum.<<

our man Chuck was an accomplished test pilot; aknowledged as the best of the best by his contemporaries then and now. And Chuck spent time in a Corsair cockpit, as well as virtualy every other fighter type he could lay hands on. So Chuck places the Mustang at the top of the fighter foodchain.

Who are we to argue??? I Think Chuck would agree that all these comparisons of AC should be prefaced with the given unsaid axiom of "pilot skills notwithstanding".

I strongly suspect that the attribute that  wins more engagements here in AH is the pilots skill in reading relative e states.

Certainly, AC selection, overall experience and gun platform capabilities all play a role; but I submit that here the attentive implementation of tactics (e mangement)clearly emerge in a sim as being the decisive factor in a fight; and I luv it.  




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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8

[Minotaur]

Geez;

I just read an article not long ago that said the F4 had less or about the same torque as the 51.  I'll try to re-locate it.

It was just that when the 51 came along the experience with torque was in place, not true with the F4.

Mino

[funked]

Hangtime, I have read guys with equal or better credentials to Yeager who say the same things as he does but it's the P-38, the Spitfire, the Fw 190, the F4U, so on and so forth.  The way you separate the truth from the BS is controlled flight testing.

[Jekyll]

 

Minotaur, you can find guys who will make comments like Yeager's about every frikkin plane in the war!
Also Yeager is a stick&rudder guy. He's not an engineer and he's not exactly what you'd call a brain surgeon on the IQ scale either.

"The guy was an instinctive engineer, born to an innate understanding of mechanics and mechanical systems ........ He used Ridley and me as his professors, and wound up knowing nearly as much as we did"  a quote by Dick Frost, Bell X-1 Project engineer.
Source :Yeager, p.144.

Somehow I don't think that guys on the bottom end of the IQ curve finish up as USAF Test Pilots, nor do they become the head of the Air Force Aerospace Research Pilots School, training military astronauts.

But of course funked, you would no doubt be more of an expert on flying the P51, wouldn't you?    And just WHAT are your qualifications???


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C.O. Phoenix Squadron
www.users.bigpond.com/afinlayson/index.htm
'feel the heat .......'

[Pongo]

hangtime
"I strongly suspect that the attribute that wins more engagements here in AH is the pilots skill in reading relative e states."

Lets see. probebly 70% of the top pilots kills are vulches. I would imagine that can be interpreted as supperior skill in establishing E state...
Check list to establish E state.
1. Is he on the ground?

[Fishu]

Hey Pongo, quit insulting  
Most of my kills are darn boring P-51s at 25k, whos been dumb enough to lose altitude  

[Minotaur]

How easy it is to judge things, "When the Judgement Comes from a Position of Incomplete Understanding and Complete Assumption".

Mino