Author Topic: WWI expansion.  (Read 1111 times)

Offline 1carbine

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WWI expansion.
« on: April 25, 2010, 10:53:09 PM »
I look at the WWI numbers everytime I log on and usually don't see that many people on. Someting has to be done. New planes? that might work for a bit. tanks? not a whole lot in WWI but would be nice. trenches? Yes! All (and I use that loosely) that would need to be done is make it like your a downed pilot with a Colt and a knife, use you secondary select to switch back and forth between the two, and it could be good for when you get peeved in the MA and you could just go into the trenches and start stabbin'  :devil


And if i'm stealing this thread by accident let me know.
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Offline Jayhawk

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Re: WWI expansion.
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2010, 11:34:38 PM »
And if i'm stealing this thread by accident let me know.

Not sure how you can steal a thread with the OP.

This discussion has been had many a times in many threads.  There are those who like it just the way it is, and then there is the rest of us. 

I wouldn't be surprised if the next patch/release has some changed related to WWI.
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Offline CptTrips

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Re: WWI expansion.
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2010, 11:39:42 AM »
Not sure how you can steal a thread with the OP.

This discussion has been had many a times in many threads.  There are those who like it just the way it is, and then there is the rest of us. 

I wouldn't be surprised if the next patch/release has some changed related to WWI.


IMHO, there needs to be a WWI FurBall Arena and a WWI MA. 

The Furball arena is fine for a light snack, or to grab a sortie or two when time is short.  There is even a small segment that prefer that type of play all the time just like there is a small minority who prefer the DA furball lake to the WWII MA.

However, HTC has spoiled most of us with the depth, and richness of the gaming environment in the WWII MA.  It’s hard to maintain interest long term in an arena with no point, or purpose, or context.  I think many of the players who tried the WWI arena enjoyed the planes and combat just fine.  I haven’t heard one person say they didn’t like the planes or the flight model, or the graphics. They lost interest quickly with the sterile, predicatable, linear game play of the mosh-pit.  There is none of the drama and excitement generated from the conficting purpose of goal oriented battle that is provided in the WWII MA. 

I suspect when people play these types of games, to some extent they are wanting to live a little bit of an interactive movie where they are a character. 

Now imagine a movie or book that has no plot, no story.  The characters stand around in an empty room .  They occationally shoot one another for no reason.  When shot the person simply rematerialized in the corner.  There was no reason to shoot them, nor was there any penalty for being shot.  There is no point, or purpose.  There is nothing they are contending over.  There is no conflict of purpose to drive the story.  There is no flow to the story.  There is no beginning, middle, or end.  Just random, meaningless little bits of activity with no context.  Would you spend 2 hours watching a movie like that?  Would you read a 300 page book like that?  Would you spend months playing in an arena like that?

If all strat, bombers, rockets, field capture were removed from the WWII MA, would it remain successful?  Having set that standard of engrossment, can the WWI arena be reasonably expected to succeed without it?

Regards,
Wab

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Offline Jayhawk

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Re: WWI expansion.
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2010, 12:40:49 PM »

IMHO, there needs to be a WWI FurBall Arena and a WWI MA. 


I've kind of thought the same thing.  There has been this huge debate on the BBS about changing WWI.  Who says play has to be either MA style or Dueling.  I don't want to take away from those who enjoy WWI play as it is now, but why not keep that arena and then add one with more depth?
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Offline GreyGoose

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Re: WWI expansion.
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2010, 08:06:52 PM »
or as another idea, if i recall there are 3 wwI arenas. why not just change 1 of those arenas to said design?

Offline Jayhawk

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Re: WWI expansion.
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2010, 08:13:47 PM »
or as another idea, if i recall there are 3 wwI arenas. why not just change 1 of those arenas to said design?

I think that's basically what Wabbit and myself said.
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Offline SCTusk

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Re: WWI expansion.
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2010, 12:37:23 AM »
Quote
There is no point, or purpose.  There is nothing they are contending over.  There is no conflict of purpose to drive the story.  There is no flow to the story.  There is no beginning, middle, or end.  Just random, meaningless little bits of activity with no context.

Sounds just like my real life Wab. Am I doing something wrong?  :headscratch:
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Offline 1carbine

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Re: WWI expansion.
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2010, 12:43:30 AM »
Not sure how you can steal a thread with the OP.

This discussion has been had many a times in many threads.  There are those who like it just the way it is, and then there is the rest of us. 

I wouldn't be surprised if the next patch/release has some changed related to WWI.

Whoops what I meant was the Idea. Rule #3
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Offline Jayhawk

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Re: WWI expansion.
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2010, 12:48:18 AM »
Whoops what I meant was the Idea. Rule #3

No problem, just confused me what you meant to say.

Rule #3 and #10 can sometimes come into contention with each other.  However you can find this topic in some very recent threads.  I might wait a little bit and see what the latest HTC release will be though; I wouldn't be surprised if they do make changes related to WWI very soon.
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Offline Simba

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Re: WWI expansion.
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2010, 02:48:04 PM »
Well said, Wab. AH WWI: no point, no war, just an endless y-a-a-a-a-a-a-w-n of furballers participating in an arcade game instead of a decent simulation of the fascinating variety that was the World War One air-warfare reality.

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Offline 321BAR

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Re: WWI expansion.
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2010, 02:55:06 PM »
Sounds just like my real life Wab. Am I doing something wrong?  :headscratch:
guess youre an absurdist...

I'd love to say +1 to a WWI MA but HOW? there is no way to capture bases, no way to attack bases... the frontlines moved too slow to be of any use. planes only carried POS mini bomb bugs, no troop delivery system... HiTech would have to add in a whole newly designed WWI including MANY WWI planes, infantry mode which turns it into a ground force sim instead of a flight sim... aka big fat BUST
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Offline Ghosth

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Re: WWI expansion.
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2010, 03:48:24 PM »
Well 321bar in the old DOA (which HT built btw) you had 2 seat aircraft which could call in arty strikes.

You had Zeps to hunt, barrage balloons to kill, a variety of things to do.

None of which are strictly required for a pure fur-ball environment.
All of which would probably add things for people to do, and thus tend to keep them in the arena. Thus keeping numbers a bit higher.

I'm hoping with the user configurable arena's, and a few good map makers that we can get all that in the fairly near future.

Offline CptTrips

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Re: WWI expansion.
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2010, 09:20:03 PM »
guess youre an absurdist...

I'd love to say +1 to a WWI MA but HOW? there is no way to capture bases, no way to attack bases... the frontlines moved too slow to be of any use. planes only carried POS mini bomb bugs, no troop delivery system... HiTech would have to add in a whole newly designed WWI including MANY WWI planes, infantry mode which turns it into a ground force sim instead of a flight sim... aka big fat BUST


Well, since you asked....

there are a billion possible designs, and billion different variations on each, but since you asked I’ll try and rattle off some ideas I could imagine in the arena I’d like to see.  These are just my opinions and not thoroughly analyzed.  They are fresh off the top of my brain and still steaming.  I’m sure they are full of holes but I think you’ll get the gist.


I.   Based on the arena dynamics I’ve seen in the WWII MA over the years, I am assuming the best configuration is going to be a non-historical 3 country setup.  I know I’m going to catch hell from the purists.  I am not saying that AVA type arenas and historic scenarios aren’t going to be a heck of a lot of fun (I will LOVE having some scenarios), but for a day to day internet multiplayer competitive arena, the 3 country configuration paradoxically and unintuitive has far more advantages than the alternatives.  And I am a player who originally hated that some 11 years ago when I first started playing AH.  The many complex reasons this works best have been gone over ad naseum and are beyond the scope of this discussion.

II.   I do not think the WWI MA should attempt to simulate WWI.  I think the WWI MA should provide a strat enabled multiplayer environment consistent with the WWI technology and aircraft (with some concessions made for game-play).

III.   I think all WWI aircraft in the planeset should be available to all countries.

IV.   Given the historical context, I don’t believe fields should be “captured”.

V.   Like a scenario, the winning of the war is accomplished by the completion of certain mission and the accumulation of points.

VI.   Since fields are not captured,  the arena can be laid out differently than in required in the WWII MA.  A simple 3-way arrangement would be sufficient.  As long as each side had a sufficient front against each other team.  A 3-way trench system would define the fronts.  Something similar to (fig. A):


VII.   Airfields are not indestructible.  They can be attacked and damaged from fighters and bombers and artillery.  They will have manable and auto-ack. The hangars can be destroyed, but won’t stay completely down for long.  Depending on resupply,  planes can soon spawn from damaged airfields but until the field is fully repaired, spawned AC may start out with random levels of damage at takeoff.  Airfields are resupplied by trains and truck supply columns.

VIII.   Truck supply columns and trains resupply fields and strategic targets.  Destroying these will delay the rebuild time of damaged assets.

IX.   Stategic Assets like bridges, command centers, rail yards, truck, supply and ammo depots can be damaged either by direct attack with bomber formations (e.g. Gotha, Handley-Page 3 plane drone wingmen like WWII)


or by observation plane recon.  An observation plane overflys a target a trigger is set.  If the observation plane lands back at a friendly base, the trigger fires an artillery barrage at the overflown target.  It takes longer, and if the observation plane doesn’t make it back there is no barrage, but if successful, the artillery delivers a more damaging blowing than the ordinance that can be carried by the bombers.  Bombers and observation planes , due to their special role, are identified on DAR and brighter colored dots than the other enemy contact.

X.   A system of tethered observation ballons spans the fronts.

These represent the spotting and early warning systems (i.e. local DAR).  These are destroyable and will leave gaps in coverage.  Resupply time rebuilds them back to full status eventually.  (see rings in VI. Fig A.)

XI.   The war is not won by field capture.  Like a scenario, the war is won by a sufficiently large accumulated advantage of “Strategic Balance Points”.  SBP are accumulated through the damage/destruction of enemy aircraft, airfields, and strategic assets.  SBP are lost when your planes, airfields, strategic assets are damaged and destroyed.  You not only have to score against the enemy, but prevent them from scoring against you.  At any point, the current strategic balance can be visualized by a “War Status” tab on the Clipboard.  In addition to the normal information there is a Strategic Balance Graph similar to:


The length of each teams vector is representative of its relative accumulated SBP total.  If at any time the balance point is pushed out to or beyond the outer red ring, the war is over.  The team with the longest vector is the winner.  If two teams have exactly the same points when the balance point breaches the red ring, then the war continues until one of the other team scores another point.  If before that happens, the balance point is pushed back inside the red ring, the war continues.

XII.   Perk points earned in the arena can be used to purchase special ac and ground vehicles.

a.   3 Tanks groups (primary and 2 drones like the bombers) can be purchased which punch a hole in the front and penetrate to enemy frontline airfields for a raid.  These can attack and damage the airfields (but not capture).  They can be bombed or countered with perk-purchased tanks from the other side.


b.   Zepplins can be purchased.  Due to the distances they traveled, they can air spawn.  They are like a cross between an observation plane and a bomber.  They carry an impressive bomb load, but also are big enough to carry powerful radios that can call in real-time artillery strikes if they loiter within a certain radius of a strategic asset.  But they are very slow and very vulnerable to attack.


Uhhh that’s all I can think of for now.  I’m outa beer.  ;)

Regards,
Wab


   





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Offline 321BAR

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Re: WWI expansion.
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2010, 09:31:27 PM »
ok that does make sense
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Offline SCTusk

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Re: WWI expansion.
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2010, 04:30:07 AM »
Zeppelins? Observation balloons? Just what we need in there, more gasbags lol (just kidding - I'm probably the worst offender). Seriously though Wab, you were there when FC reached its' zenith, remember how simple that was? And the main point of the WW1 arena is I believe to provide a pure DF experience. If you ask for too much you may get nothing! Try this:

1. Two sides only - Allies v Axis, historical a/c options only (foooey on your scientific arguments, it worked ok in WW1 lol)
2. Fighters able to carry light bombs where historically appropriate - if not possible then ground straffing would suffice.
3. Reduced (realistic) accuracy/effect from Archie. 
4. Multiple airfields along a broad front which can be rendered unusable (for a short time) by destruction of hangars or other key structures.
5. a/c type availability restrictions at each airfield.
6. A few more a/c options, latest favourites (suggested by mano) which have my vote are: Halberstadt CL2, Albatros DVa, SE5a, and the Spad XIII.
7. Observation balloons linked to radar as you suggest.

No need for a 'victory' here; air superiority and dictating which airfields the nme can and can't use provides the reward. It's simple and it preserves the pure DF idea as much as possible while still providing opportunities for some light ground attack, and has team goals beyond just knocking down the latest wave of nme fighters, which is fine but just a tad more incentive wouldn't go astray. Hopefully the user configurable arenas which have been promised could be set up this way.   
"We don't have a plan, so nothing can go wrong." (Spike Milligan)

Read my WW1 online novel 'Blood and Old Bones' at http://www.ww1sims.com/
A tribute to WW1 airmen and the squadron spirit, inspired by virtual air combat.

SCTusk    ++ SKELETON CREW ++  founde