Author Topic: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene  (Read 6224 times)

Offline bozon

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #165 on: May 09, 2010, 07:09:42 PM »
Unless you're perfect (which you yourself know you're not), your theories, ideas, and calculations will be flawed.
That is incorrect and sounds like theology, not logic. If one is imperfect (in what way? forgetting my anniversary?) it does not necessarily means that his idea or calculation will be flawed.
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Offline Penguin

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #166 on: May 10, 2010, 09:49:23 AM »
That is incorrect and sounds like theology, not logic. If one is imperfect (in what way? forgetting my anniversary?) it does not necessarily means that his idea or calculation will be flawed.

Correct, Denholm, you are contradicting yourself:

First you say that man is imperfect and therefore cannot truly comprehend universal constants, which are "perfect" in that they are always correct.  Next, you say that man cannot invent anything because he can only discover what is already there.  Both of those statements could be true, but they are contradictory.

Next to disproving both points, even if man is "imperfect", he still managed to survive at least one Ice Age, and the thaw afterward.  Therefore, the margin of error is small enough to be negligible, even if it still exists.  Second, shoes didn't come from the big bang, they came from our need to cover our feet to prevent nasty cuts, and sometimes gangrene and botulism.  Shoelaces came about to ease the keeping of the shoes on our feet.  Now you see that we created a solution to a problem, which had a flaw, and then we invented a solution to that flaw.

Your points are both incorrect and contradictory, try again.

-Penguin

Offline FireDrgn

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #167 on: May 10, 2010, 04:10:31 PM »
Next, you say that man cannot invent anything because he can only discover what is already there.


He did not say that I did.  Your running post together.


Both statements can be WRONG if they contradict  they can not both be RIGHT.

« Last Edit: May 10, 2010, 04:28:39 PM by FireDrgn »
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Offline AKH

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #168 on: June 04, 2010, 09:24:43 AM »
I would like you to find a triangle in which all of the angles do not add up to 180 degrees

All hyperbolic triangles  :uhoh
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Offline Penguin

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #169 on: June 05, 2010, 10:09:19 AM »
I was refering to a triangle in a 2 dimensional plane, sorry if I wasn't clear about that!  :eek:

-Penguin

PS Good one, I didn't see it coming

Offline gyrene81

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #170 on: June 06, 2010, 01:43:40 AM »
You guys are still at this? Don't you get it? There is no right or wrong answer to the theories as far as science is concerned. What can be proven has been proven, what can't be proven is being postulated using available technology to examine what data there is to be had.
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Offline AKH

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #171 on: June 06, 2010, 03:56:02 AM »
Wow.  Delivered with such authority, yet so wide of the mark that it astounds.
AKHoopy Arabian Knights
google koan: "Your assumptions about the lives of others are in direct relation to your naïve pomposity."

Offline FireDrgn

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #172 on: June 06, 2010, 01:49:19 PM »
You guys are still at this? Don't you get it? There is no right or wrong answer to the theories as far as science is concerned. What can be proven has been proven, what can't be proven is being postulated using available technology to examine what data there is to be had.

Ok you sucked me back in.... :devil


How do YOU KNOW that there are no right or wrong anwers? 

When you have a contradiction you have at least one wrong answer. 


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Offline gyrene81

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #173 on: June 06, 2010, 04:02:02 PM »
Ok you sucked me back in.... :devil


How do YOU KNOW that there are no right or wrong anwers? 

When you have a contradiction you have at least one wrong answer. 
Just look at all of the theories over the past 100 years, the "answers" change, and they will change again as new information is found through research. The only real contradictions occur between ideologies, otherwise there are "revised theories". They all have merits within their circles and only the most readily accept become the most publicized. Hell, even Hawkings has admitted one of his theories was wrong and is in the process of revising it, hopefully before he dies. I've even seen one theory that was once considered "the best" on the subject at one time only to be proven as bunk years after it's publication.

Discussions like this are like talking politics, basing one's ideology on the merits of work from complete strangers trusting that what is read is true.
jarhed  
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline FireDrgn

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #174 on: June 06, 2010, 05:01:48 PM »
You claim there is no right or wrong answers  .  Then as Proof  for your claim. You state that Hawkings admitted his theory was WRONG       So  you  must have right and wrong.

What your explaining is   to  NOT knowing something for sure.  Which is exactly what the last 12 pages  were about. 

Answers change because  people are wrong  . 

Are you suggesting that the evidence keeps changing?   

......"They all have merits within their circles and only the most readily accept become the most publicized"...........quote

Your describing a faith based system  you might want to be carefull  there.



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Offline gyrene81

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #175 on: June 06, 2010, 05:45:29 PM »
You're trying to drag me back in this aren't you?  :lol  evil man.

In science, answers change when new evidence is found, whether it proves an existing theory to be erroneous in some way or reinforces the theory in some way, it's not considered wrong unless it's shown to be based on false claims. Hence the continuing efforts in researching existing theories and developing new theories.

Just because Hawkings said one of his theories is wrong, doesn't mean it is wrong in the manner you're speaking.

Just to illustrate, the infamous Iguanodon. At one point it was theorized to be a single species of bipedal dinosaur, it's now known to be a genus of both bipedal and quadripedal dinosaurs. That doesn't mean the original theory was wrong, there just wasn't as much information as there is now.

The best description of what I'm saying regarding the Iguanodon from an encyclopedia:
Quote
Scientific understanding of Iguanodon has evolved over time as new information has been obtained from the fossils. The numerous specimens of this genus, including nearly complete skeletons from two well-known bonebeds have allowed researchers to make informed hypthoses regarding many aspects of the living animal, including feeding, movement, and social behaviour. As one of the first scientifically well-known dinosaurs, Iguanodon has occupied a small but notable place in the public's perception of dinosaurs, its artistic representation changing significantly in response to new interpretations of its remains.
jarhed  
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline FireDrgn

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #176 on: June 06, 2010, 10:06:33 PM »
What manner am i speaking?   

 """it's not considered wrong unless it's shown to be based on false claims"""


SO THERE IS WRONG  and there is False.   


What makes you think you can use these terms if they dont exist?   

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Offline bozon

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #177 on: June 06, 2010, 11:29:08 PM »
SO THERE IS WRONG  and there is False.   
There are all kinds of "wrong" theories in science. Some are just found to be inaccurate or incomplete - such as Newton's mechanics. Others are found to produce correct predictions, even though they are based on wrong arguments - like Bohr's hydrogen model. Other are found to be completely wrong - like the ether universe. All these theories have been replaced by other theories that look to be correct so far. They are not 100% certain to be correct, but they are certainly "more correct" than the previous ones.

A "wrong" theory often survive even after a better one was found. As long as the user is aware of the accuracy and applicability limits of the theory it can be used. The first two examples I gave: Newton's mechanics and Bohr's hydrogen model are still being used, because for most applications they are good enough and much easier to handle than the superseding theories.

If you insist on the absolute terms of true and false, then science can only prove false because all it takes is finding one contradicting example/measurement.
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline boomerlu

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #178 on: June 07, 2010, 01:36:49 AM »
A lot of people here have the right idea. But many also are using the wrong terms.

Semantics? Yes. But if you want to make a statement which others can understand, you better use the correct terms, otherwise none of us can ever be sure what you really mean. Thus all the logical and verbal bickering. Because it does matter.

This mainly goes for you gyrene (not a personal attack, but just an observation) - it is up to you to ensure we get the proper meaning of your statements. This requires a precise application of language and specialized terms. You actually have a better idea of what science is about than many people, but your articulation of it is rather lacking.

There is a lot of nuance as to the nature of "truth" and "falsehood", "right" and "wrong", etc when it comes to science.

As others have stated, science as it is currently practiced is not about proving things. That is because science as we use it deals with generalizations.

Sure you can prove many specific statements about the physical world, but they are typically not interesting because they have no applicability to other situations. E.g., you can prove that I ate food today. But does this mean I will eat food tomorrow? Does this mean that everybody eats food? Scientists actually grapple with this sort of dilemma! The more precise/rigid you make the theory, the less predictive power it has, and the less useful it is.

As a practical matter, generalizations about the physical world are impossible to prove. Quite simply, we will never have a complete data set of our universe. We will never be able to observe every cell, every atom, every person. Even if we had a complete (and to infinite precision) data set of all possible physical parameters at all points in space-time within our universe, we cannot possibly test every possible combination of these parameters.

So the idea of proving things is not useful to science. What about disproving? Sure it's comparatively easy, it only takes one counterexample, but disproofs do not a scientific theory make as they have no predictive value. Which brings me to another point.

Science constructs models of the physical world and the aim of the model is to provide us with true statements as much as possible, especially statements about events we have not yet observed. Predictive power is important since that is the "upshot" of all this science. If we can't use our knowledge, then what good is it?

Not to say disproofs aren't useful - they tell us our models are incomplete, they point us in the right direction for further research, and a whole host of other things.

Given the impossibility of proving scientific models, what are we left with? What's the point if we can't "know for sure"?

Would you take 1000:1 odds in your favor on a bet? What about 1 million:1? That is what is ACTUALLY behind those statements you see in the news about scientists "proving" something or the other (assuming the research was sound in the first place). For instance, the odds involved in claiming discovery of a new particle are roughly 1.7 million:1.

Finally, I want to touch on a point that is especially relevant to the whole evolution debate - the simplicity of a theory. A good theory is as simple as possible but not simpler. Why is this important? Because the more crap you need to explain something, the more questions that must be answered to give you those good odds. This is where every theory involving the supernatural goes way off base.

I'll use God as an example, since He's quite popular when it comes to this type of thing. When it comes to evolution - if God designed all the species to be a certain way, WHY did he chose these specific traits? Why not do it some other way? Why design species that function on the planet Earth? Why not design species that will function on say... Jupiter?  From a practical standpoint, does this theory give us anything useful (predictive power)? If you have an answer to these questions, what scientific evidence do you have to back it up? And the biggest question/loophole of all - how do you know that God even exists?

It's possible. But is there an explanation which is based on a system we already understand and is reasonably well tested (i.e., it has good odds)? Yes indeed - genetics, probability, and mutation; in other words the theory of macro-evolution (as gyrene puts it, not a bad term).

True, neither explanation is testable, but which is a better explanation? Which is simpler? Which is based on a system which is already well tested? Which has less logical loopholes?

That in the end is why no well-accepted scientific theory involves God or any other supernatural phenomena - they just makes things more complicated without being at all useful.

To close, let me just say there's no reason you can't believe in God just as there's no reason religion and science can't get along. It's just that there's way too many reasons to NOT use God as an explanation in science. And I wouldn't put any bets on it...

BUT, as long as you do not mix the two, I'd say you're fine.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2010, 01:55:11 AM by boomerlu »
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Offline FireDrgn

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #179 on: June 07, 2010, 01:38:24 PM »
""If you insist on the absolute terms of true and false, then science can only prove false because all it takes is finding one contradicting example/measurement. ""

I am not insisting on absolute truths in science. I'm insisting that absolute truth must exist . Absolute truth is only limited by us the observers.


Boomerlu has some good points.    Right and wrong are  both generalizations and they can be ambiguous.   Contradictions are one of the most powerfull tools in life and science.  Knowing when your wrong and to what degree is also very empowering.
To tell me there is no right and wrong because you dont understand the representational system your using is  just  sloppy at best. 


Language is a representational system  ...ie  math.....  Any thing you can do with math you can do with language. .0000000003043040923434    its called getting specific.

We ALL  think the same way we talk.  ( in this case type)  Its called internal dialogue.









 








 
 
 
"When the student is ready the teacher will appear."   I am not a teacher.