USAAF vs Luftwaffe..

[juzz]

They shot down some V-1's in between all that sitting on their arses though. But I didn't say I wanted Tempest before Dora. My point wasn't that at all... Anyway Dora 12 is a much better idea.  

[Hangtime]

Yowsa! Propaganda and wishful extrapoliation aside; I have over the years gained the impression that the LW had in the Dora their finest prop fighter. Of course; the Mustang gets the same recognition from the Allied side. (obscure types with limited combat exposure notwithstanding)  

I heard somewhere that towards the end of the war extensive side by side testing was done with a Dora and a Stang... anybody know where I can find this?? Mebbe see it posted here?

It would be sad indeed if the Dora was not given a high priority for introduction in AH.. Considering the quality of 1 v 1 dissimilar ACM we currently enjoy, a Dora would be much applauded.   Flying the late model stang against the current 109 and FW
variants is just about a turkey shoot.  

And; as a dyed-in-the wool USAAF pilot, I'd sure like to wish that when the much-vaunghted FW190D/9 appears, we get a Tbolt and a Lightning (with historical terrain) STAT!  

Now; there's no doubt in my military mind that Pyro and HT are well aware of the current somewhat unbalanced platform availabilty, and I know it'll all come in due time. And under the circumstances, I have to point out I'm not particularly impaitent, given my platform prefrence.

Muahhhaaahaaahaaaaaa!  

Hang




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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8

[-kier-]

 

Dora did fight P 51. It was made to fight it. And we need it to fight the menace.

Hristo-

I've seen this quote twice, and I'm wondering what your source is? Everything I have suggests that the D9 was an attempt to boost the altitude performance of the FW190. The primary focus of the LW by this point was too stop the bombers that were leveling Germany. it's intended role was interceptor, though it was very competitive with the Mustangs and Spitfires (page 507 The Great Book of WWII Airplanes, Bonanza Books 1984). I have numerous sources that basically repeat this thought.   The D series was merely a stop-gap until the definitive Ta-152 could be developed.

Of course, it needs to be added with all due haste!  

[Hristo]

I guess the best definition would be multi role figher...

Still, its armament configuration (compared to bomber interceptors), as well as role of high escort of heavier bomber killers like A-8 or 110, suggests that its duty was somewhat different than you say, Kier.

Also, it wasn't nicknamed Mustang Killer for nothing  

[SnakeEyes]

Yes, by all means we need to add the Dora right now... so the whining will stop.

The most commonly quoted production figure for the Dora is 700ish.  I believe that Funked has seen one source that states around 1000.  For what it's worth the Dora saw very limited combat action prior to late December 1944.  

Given the high losses the Luftwaffe was suffering (the first squad equipped with the 190D was composed of a large number of converted bomber/bomber-destroyer pilots and suffered very high losses); the avgas shortage; the moving about that some JGs did; and, finally, the number of airfield-strafing sorties the Allies made as the war came to a close, I suspect that the number of Doras that saw significant combat action was probably no more than about 400-500.

So, that means that the we should be seeing the Spitfire XIV first (which equipped RAF squads beginning in April 1944).  

Or, more appropriately, a slew of other aircraft like the bf110, P38, P47, P40, Hurricane, etc.  

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[juzz]

Well, all I can say to that is they better take the George out of AH post haste, I just read that only 423 were built...

[funked]

Juzz, I should correct myself.  400 Tempest Mk. V served with the RAF during WW2.  There may have been others built later.

As near as I can tell SnakeEyes is pulling that 400-500 figure out of his crack.    

I forgot who gave me the new figure of 1100 or so.  I had read 700 for a long time, then somebody on one of these boards (please speak up!) said he had some new info that there were 1000+.

400-500 still might be correct for the number that served though.  Who knows...

On a similar note, there is a much quoted figure of 20,000 Fw 190A's built, based on very sketchy records from Fw.  However BMW's records (which are supposedly in order) show that only 13,000 801 engines were built!    

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 12-09-1999).]

[juzz]

That number (800) is for Tempest Mk V built by August 1945. Anyway, deciding which plane should be in on numbers is ridiculous and obviously HTC don't care to do it that way Eg: N1K2-J.

[wells]

Production at the end of September '43

Fw-190A series:  3223
F series:  548
G series:  790

In December of '44, 1858 Fw-190s were in action, 1237 on the western front, 621 on the Eastern front.

Of the Fw-190D series, 674 aircraft were built (including prototypes).

In mid-January '45, there were 1534 Fw190's (all types including the Ta-152) still in action.

These figures come from Heinz Nawarra's book on the 190 and seem accurate to me.  The figures are actually broken down into unit strength which I didn't post here.  Note that the figure for D model production is a nice exact figure, not rounded off, like 600 or 700 or 1000 or 1100.  That doesn't mean it's correct, but it would seem to be reliable.  

How many of those 801's went into bombers?

[Werewolf]

Sorry wells, the numbers you have got on the D-9 are quite wrong IMHO. The overall number of produced D-models (includung ptototypes)was 847 (Quote: FW 190 / Ta 152 by Griehl / Dressel, Motorbuchverlag, ISBN: 3-613-01681-8, 2nd edition 1997)

D-9 airframe numbers (Werksnummern):

210001-212160   FW 190 D-9
217000          FW 190 D-9
400201-401380   FW 190 D-9
500001-500650   FW 190 D-9
600121-601600   FW 190 D-9
630000          FW 190 D-9

If you count in all eventualities (25% losses before reaching the squads) your number around 600 should represent the 190 D-9s that really saw combat.

Just my 5 cents

Werewo
JG 301 "Heimatverteidigung"

[weretiger]

hello
being a fw fan and having doing a bit of research on the beast,i can not resits....
For comparison between the stang and the fw190.
There is something in FW190 in combact from alfred Price (more about Fw190A against P51B).
I have seen that test in the uk archive and one comparing for NA on d9 with a jumo213 E.
It is not very accurate and does not have any hard data.

and one as well on the P47 and a Fw190 at low level.

from my research (for what it is worth...)
the test between the A and the p51 B
gave the Pony  50 mph faster up to 28k
and 70 above.
the rate of climb were comparable and the stang better in zoom climb.
the roll rate of the Fw190 was far much better.
turning circle: there is little to chose between the two. the mustang is sligtly better.
The mustang can always out dive a FW190

It seem very very likely that the test
was carried with a 390 mph fw (more likely a ground attack, captured in Italy)
It was done in late 43. The A8 the slowest of the A figthers (execpt the r11 and the A8 that got the TU around june-jully 44)was introduced in beginning of 44. Even if it was a A8 I have the speed of 399 @ 21 k.
with special dispositive that increased the boost (not the Mw50, GM1 or a petrol injection) the top speed was 405-406.
an earlier figther wersion would be 10 mph faster that that around let say 413-416 @ 22 k for the A5/A6.

The test for the P47 was with a 390 mph FW190
and a whater-methanol injected p47.
the Fw was more manoeverable but slower..

I hope that helped

[weretiger]

On the number produced.

well this, with power boosting in a Fw is the topic

We know for sure that there was between 17000 to 21 000 fw190 produced.
price break it down as follows
1941 1224
1942 1878
1943 3208
1944 11401
1945 up to may circa 2700
1945 ta produced 150.
so it is 19570.
i was able to more or less match that up with data in the uk archive.

as far as the early version
a0=40
A1=102
A2=423
A3=509
A4=900
A5=726
A6=556
g+F = 6634
Ta=150 or 160
In most publication, those figure are more or less the same.
but for the other it is more dodgy....

A german autor mrs Rodeike published a book in german. this is where to highest figures are comming from.
the other are the most commonly pubished.

A7=80, 80 of the number produced were R6  or 701
A8=1100,3300 or 6655
A9= none or 930
D= 650 d9 + 50 d12 or 1826 (including d11,12 13)
Rodeike works has an adventage it makes the mathermatic works...
you find a number around 20100

Any way, as far as i can tell this is a very foggy subjects..




[This message has been edited by weretiger (edited 12-10-1999).]

[Fishu]

Weretiger: Weren't P-51B also alot more maneuverable than P-51D?

[weretiger]

that is my understanding.

Even the version with the rear fuselage fin of the P51 D was not considered as the P51 B was manoeuverable.
Again i take that from diverse board and books.I can not really prove it.

I understand that the adventage of the D were a very good altitude performance (not as good as the B) and a supercharger optimised for low and medium altitude, hence better perf than the B
and of course 2 more guns



[This message has been edited by weretiger (edited 12-10-1999).]

[SnakeEyes]

Absolutely... I'll admit that I'm speculating Funked... but I don't think it's an unreasonable estimate of the situation.

Assuming that 700ish is the base number from which we're working, if you knock off all the aircraft destroyed on the ground, shotdown on the first or second sortie, lost in Bodenplatte (I think the LW lost about 250 pilots with Bodenplatte so the aircraft count is obviously higher), and so forth, you've probably got about 4-500 190Ds that 'effectively' saw combat.

Now, of course, you KNOW my stand on the old number & impact argument... but when we're talking with the numbers & impact crowd, I figure I might as well speak their language.

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=