Author Topic: FM details we might need  (Read 385 times)

Offline Hristo

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1150
FM details we might need
« on: December 09, 1999, 12:40:00 AM »
After mentioning it in another thread, I came to the conclusion that our FM might suffer from certain "inaccuracies".

Well, not really inaccuracies in FM, but minor things not modeled, which might put some plane to unhistoric advantage or disadvantage.

Here I would mention the following:


- leading edge slats for 109, with all good and bad consequences on flight envelope

- laminar wing of the P 51; I am not sure if it is modeled, but you know my opinion on slow speed/high AoA behavior of our Pony

- engine management in 190, compared to Spit or P 51 engine management; it affected the combat in real life, why would it not affect the combat in AH, just as fuel affects it

- gyroscopic gunsight for P 51

- fuel loadout multiplier -  real P 51 never fought over Germany with 25% or less gas - our P 51 do

Please post your opinions on these, or some other FM tweaks that deserve attention.

Offline -ik-

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 106
      • http://members.cruzio.com/~jeffs
FM details we might need
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 1999, 01:51:00 AM »
all good points except for the last one about the fuel multiplier. AH isn't a historical game, so I don't see any need to put historical restrictions on ac.

I would bet that the slats of the 109 are accounted for, they were in wb. But I agree that the P-51 is much too forgiving, as it was in wb. Of course this is an anecdotal opinion, though i've read loads of quotes from p51 pilots who commented on its nasty high speed stall and poor handling at high aoa.

[This message has been edited by -ik- (edited 12-09-1999).]

Offline Westy

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2871
FM details we might need
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 1999, 09:19:00 AM »
 How about the pilot need for oxygen??? For folks who want realistic how about adding that along with the engine management and other mechanical add ons.
 Guns freezing at alt? Oil all over canopy when the engine gets hit? How about random mechanical failures. Blowers that do not kick in. Pitch controls that get stuck? Engines that throw a piston rod in flight? How about electrical system failures.
 How about freezing your bellybutton off at 25k?

 -Westy

Offline Jinx

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3
FM details we might need
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 1999, 10:17:00 AM »
Most of this is pure speculation on my part, not even educated guessing, so please go ahead and flame me..

I have a ‘feeling’ that the modeling of the wing and lift is a bit off. I may be way off here, but might the current lift and angle of attack calculations be something that this sim has in part inherited from brand W?

I know Pyro said that some tweaking was planed for the FM, so it might be in the pipe, or it is correct as it is now. However, to me it feels like the modeling of the wings now is done in three parts per wing-half, the center wing section, the aileron section and the wingtip (the wingtip might not be calculated as a separate part, but IMHO should be). This makes sense, since the washout and change in the wing profile over the span is done so that the wing doesn’t stall all at the same time but first at the root and then progressively out to the tip. The AoA is effectively less at the tip. The point of this is to avoid that the plane snaps out of a turn or falls off sharply in a gentle stall. In a hard, accelerated stall the whole wing, including the tip, would still stall with a violent dropping of a wing as a result.

On brand W the wing AFAIK was done as the aileron section only, that is the entire wing would change its AoA with aileron input and flaps. To make this work the wing had to be able to handle a grater AoA then the average wing profile really could. And the loss of lift in a stalled state would not be as complete as it would be in the real world to make up for the lack of washout.

On the AH wing the center-section would change AoA and profile with flap deployment, the aileron-section with ailerons and the tip-section would never change AoA in relation to the airframe and with a lower angle of attack still generate lift when the rest of the wing sections was stalled.

In AH it feels to me, very subjectively, as if the wing can still generate lift at a too high AoA, but that the planes (all of them I think) still have a slightly high stall speed. So I speculate that the wing should generate a bit more lift at a lower AoA and stop generate lift (stall) at a lower AoA. AH is MUCH better the brand W (which was still the best before AH came online) but I would really like to hear HTCs view on this.

If I am right (and again that is a very big ‘if’) changing this could mean less rubber band feel and less bounce, a slightly lower AoA when landing and a slightly lower stall speed but a sharper loss of lift at the stall.

Another thing that I’m not sure if its modeled now, but that would have to be included is a lifting profile on the horizontal stab, or the effects on trim would probably be way to big at higher speeds.

Also, the different profiles used for the wings have very different characteristics, from the high lift wings on a N1K1, the spits elliptic wings, to the (semi) laminar flow wing of the P51. I don’t think that is prominent enough in the modeling as it flies now, the planes just feels too much alike. But all this is VERY marginal and I shouldn’t post this because I don’t know what I’m talking about..  

   -Jinx


Offline indian

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 237
FM details we might need
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 1999, 10:29:00 AM »
Heres something to think about. I have heard and read that the laminar flow wing was never achieved it was only a bunch of bull to keep the germans busy. Dont think you can have laminar flow over a wing that has different thicknesses from tip to wing root. I bleieve it was close but not quite there. The p51 actually got a preformance boost from its radiator, I read that the heated air had a jet like effect.

------------------
Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
  Cherokee Indian
My Homepage
Where you can find the Key Commands in  files for Word6 Wordpad and text mode.

indians Homepage

Aces High Word6 and Wordpad Doc's available on my web site.



Offline Hristo

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1150
FM details we might need
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 1999, 10:51:00 AM »
Hmm, westy, how about we limit the FM model only to what it offers from factory condition. Random failures or similar would be another can of worms.


Indian, I guess you are joking. Germans captured a number of P 51s, and tested some in wind tunnel. I remember even a disertation or something like that, with "laminar wing of the Mustang" mentioned in the subject.

Offline Minotaur

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 130
FM details we might need
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 1999, 01:03:00 PM »
Indian;

I did read an article about the hot gas exhaust from the radiator on the 51.  As I recall the article stated this jet effect was good for an additional 10-15 mph.

I really found that fascinating.  I presume "Every Little Bit Helps".

Merry Christmas Everyone!  

Mino

Mino

Offline juzz

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 193
      • http://nope.haha.com
FM details we might need
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 1999, 01:04:00 PM »
I think the Germans never quite figured out the P-51 radiator thrust thing.
I once read that apparently laminar flow wings have to be kept literally "spotless" to work properly, ie: a squashed bug on the leading edge will screw up the aerodynamics for that part of the wing... Here's a tidbit from J. Baugher:  
Quote
A special NACA laminar flow wing profile was adopted for the Mustang. This was an aerofoil which had a thickness that kept on increasing far beyond the usual location, i.e., to 50 percent chord rather than the usual 20 percent. These profiles had little camber, the undersurface being almost a mirror image of the upper. This wing was much more "slippery" than the old profiles, and provided lesser aerodynamic drag at high speeds than did more conventional aerofoils. However, it also had less lift at low speeds, so the NA-73X had to have large and powerful flaps to keep landing speeds from being impractically high.
So we have a wing that produces less lift at low speeds, and has less camber than a more conventional wing, which means it will perform worse at low speed and high AoA than a more conventional wing. Yet alot of people are whining about the AH Mustang's "uber" low speed turning ability...

[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 12-09-1999).]

Offline MiG Eater

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 46
      • http://www.avphoto.com
FM details we might need
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 1999, 01:28:00 PM »
Radiator thrust in a P-51 is somewhat of an urban legend.  The radiator didn't generate thrust due to the exchange of heat from the coolant to the outside air.  Coolant temps are much too low for that (below or at the boiling temp of water).  The advantage was in the lower drag in the entire cooling system compared to other radiator designs at the time.  Since the radiator was buried deep in the fuselage, it was possible to incorporate a big radiator with a lot of surface area.  From the scoop's small openening, the air rapidly expanded, cooled down and slowed in velocity.  As lower velocity air is hitting a greater surface area, it is possible to get the same cooling effect with less overall drag.  

The Spitfire and 109 (for instance) had radiators being fed with higher velocity air hitting a much smaller surface area in their housing(s) underneath the wings.  The result was a higher drag penalty for a given airspeed and desired cooling effect.

MiG

Offline Pongo

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6701
FM details we might need
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 1999, 01:29:00 PM »
Westy...
Yesssssss
Speed boosts.
As most of you will know. Even the type of exaust stubs could boost the speed a little.
On the spit it could add 5mph I believe.

CombatWombat

  • Guest
FM details we might need
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 1999, 02:14:00 PM »
Yep, and I've hard that 190 pilots would wiggle around in the cockpit, giving the plane its huge roll rate.....

>The p51 actually got a preformance boost >from its radiator, I read that the heated >air had a jet like effect.

Offline hitech

  • Administrator
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12425
      • http://www.hitechcreations.com
FM details we might need
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 1999, 02:23:00 PM »
I belive you gents are confusing a few issues on the p51. The exuast thrust that made the p51 faster was not radiator exaust but the exuast from the eng manifold. On the p51 at max throttle this was around 200 lb of thrust. 200 lb's does not sound like a lot until you look at the total thrust output of a propeler at high speeds. If my memory is correct at max speed the prop is puting out around 1500 lb's of thrust so 200/1700 is around a 12% increase in thrust.


HiTech

Offline juzz

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 193
      • http://nope.haha.com
FM details we might need
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 1999, 09:36:00 PM »
I guess there are alot of misleading stories surrounding the P-51's performance. But basically I think with the combination of low drag radiator and wing designs and the superb RR Merlin engine, and you get a nice quick plane.    

I hear the Allison engine Mustangs were quick too, but considered poor by the RAF as an air superiority fighter because of the engine's loss of power over 15k. Regardless the earlier P-51's (Mustang MkI/IA or MkII) would be very interesting to see in AH. (RAF colours of course) Since PYRO said he wanted to do earlier versions of the current planeset...

Damn spelling...

[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 12-09-1999).]

weretiger

  • Guest
FM details we might need
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 1999, 06:54:00 AM »
hello
as far as i can tell the exhaust thrust.

i beleive the german had something similar with their engine of fw190.
140 kg @20 k and 200 rpm.

i believe that was a common practise

Offline juzz

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 193
      • http://nope.haha.com
FM details we might need
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 1999, 08:25:00 AM »
Jane's WW2 Fighters manual says:
Quote
Referencing work done on prototypes of the P-40, the designers positioned the coolant system and radiator duct aft of the pilot and wing, which reduced drag and under certain conditions created a slight amount of positive thrust.
I have also seen other references to this "radiator thrust", so is it fact or myth?