Author Topic: New computer - research almost done  (Read 3157 times)

Offline Getback

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Re: New computer - research almost done
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2010, 06:59:00 PM »
A year ago I'd of said, why spend money on an LCD.

Then I went to AH con and saw what the new LCD monitors are doing.

Less than 2 weeks after returning I was flying on a new 23" LCD monitor, and yes I'm loving it.
The wife kept looking over her shoulder at my monitor and saying things like "wow, look at that color!"
So we got one for her too.

Mine was on sale at Sam's club for 196$ and sales tax.

Blows CRT's right out of the water.

One way or another I'd find another 200$ to upgrade your monitor also.


I grabbed a 24 inch monitor and like you I was stunned by the color. When I go over mom's to work on her computer I cannot stand that tiny 17 inch crt. It look dull yellow by comparison to an LCD.

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Offline DREDIOCK

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Re: New computer - research almost done
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2010, 07:58:38 PM »
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: New computer - research almost done
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2010, 10:06:22 PM »
Careful about that the SATA 3 drives do not always pair well with SATA 2 MBs.
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Offline Bino

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Re: New computer - research almost done
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2010, 08:16:29 AM »
Thanks very much for the input, folks!  :salute

Interesting that several of you had such negative comments about water-cooling.  That flies in the face of various items I've seen on Anandtech, Tomshardware, Maximumpc, and others.  There seems to be pretty broad consensus on tech web sites that water *is* needed for an i7-920 to reach 3.8 or higher, especially if "over-volting".  Interesting...

Also found your comments about the CRT vs. LCD thing intriguing.  I have some pretty nice LCDs on machines at work, and I just don't see such a night-and-day difference.  (Though I do often wonder during FSO frames if FrodoVision (tm) isn't partly the result of using a big LCD.)  Well, I can always upgrade that part later, with a supplementary appropriation from the Binoland Minister Of Finance.  Might be easier to get that approved by her as a separate, smaller request. ;)

I have an SSD-equipped dual-core Win7 64-bit laptop at home that I use for dialing in to work over the VPN.  Other than boot times - which are much improved - I don't see all that much of change from the days when it had a spinning platter hard drive.

Anyway, thanks!
« Last Edit: April 30, 2010, 08:21:38 AM by Bino »


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Offline Tigger29

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Re: New computer - research almost done
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2010, 09:55:28 AM »
Bino, you have to realize that the hardware recommendations we make here often reflect the biggest differences you'll notice playing AH and other games.  While there ARE several guys here that overclock to the limits, the vast majority of us (if we overclock at all) don't push it to its extreme limits, and as a result water cooling, in our eyes, is a waste of money.  It's not that we are against water cooling, it's just an unnecessary expense for most of us... and if money isn't the factor, then it's unnecessary as far as maintenance and voiding of warranty and all that.

While an LCD may not make that much of a difference on a work machine, it makes a HUGE difference in games such as this one, where you can make out the shape of a plane that is well beyond the 6.0K icon range... or a tank that is way off in the distance.  It really can make a life-or-death difference in the game.  If you look at things from a 'how much difference will this make in Aces High' perspective, then you'll see that an LCD upgrade will provide a MUCH, MUCH, MUCH higher level of gameplay quality compared to overclocking and water-cooling.

Yes your SSD laptop may boot faster but not make much of a difference FOR WORK USE (especially through a VPN), you have to realize two things.  Laptop-grade SSD's aren't notoriously fast, and the difference in gaming is a lot more noticeable.  A lot of micro-stutters will be eliminated.

And then there is common sense.  If you have money of your own to play with and want to risk damaging your new components with water cooling (potential leaks) and overclocking... AND voiding the warranty in the process... I say.. GO FOR IT!  Whatever floats your boat!  BUT WHEN YOU HAVE TO GET PERMISSION from the Mrs. to purchase these components... well you have to use a little common sense.  You said yourself that it may be hard to get her to agree to the added expense of an LCD monitor.  If she might get mad at you for spending an extra $200 of an LCD, then imagine what's she's going to do when you blow $1200 worth of processor, motherboard, memory and video because water leaked onto it (or because they burned up due to overclocking) and there is no warranty because of this!

Believe me, I understand wanting to play and tweak and all that, but really.. what do you do with your computer that requires you to do all of this?  There is a saying that a lot of people tend to forget these days, "Just because you CAN doesn't mean that you SHOULD"

Offline BaldEagl

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Re: New computer - research almost done
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2010, 10:29:13 AM »
Interesting that several of you had such negative comments about water-cooling.  That flies in the face of various items I've seen on Anandtech, Tomshardware, Maximumpc, and others.  There seems to be pretty broad consensus on tech web sites that water *is* needed for an i7-920 to reach 3.8 or higher, especially if "over-volting".  Interesting...

If you're going to add a full 1 Ghz to any CPU you're right; you will have to water cool it.  Even then you'll run the risk of premature CPU failure.  You have to understand that a 35% overclock is extreme and that most that do this don't run those machines at those levels in day to day use; they do it for test purposes, benchmarking or bragging rights.

Remember, I got mine to a 32% overclock on air and was still running within the temperature tolerences of the CPU, although somewhat higher than I was comfortable with on a day to day basis (about 65-68C under full load) and I spent a whopping $30 on an Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro.  Is another 3% worth the $400+ you'll spend on liquid cooling?  Regardless of whether you go with liquid or air will you be willing and able to replace the CPU next year due to extreme OCing?

At a 20% OC I'm comfortably under 60C under full load on a hot day.  That's because Intel has built their CPU's with OCing in mind for the enthusiast market but as you begin to exceed the built-in OC tolerances the heat issues increase exponentially and eventually the CPU will fail no matter what you're cooling it with due to exceeding internal voltage tolerences.

Also found your comments about the CRT vs. LCD thing intriguing.  I have some pretty nice LCDs on machines at work, and I just don't see such a night-and-day difference.  (Though I do often wonder during FSO frames if FrodoVision (tm) isn't partly the result of using a big LCD.)  Well, I can always upgrade that part later, with a supplementary appropriation from the Binoland Minister Of Finance.  Might be easier to get that approved by her as a separate, smaller request. ;)

As mentioned above, yes, I was using LCD's at work too and didn't see much difference between them and my CRT's at home, that is until I got one at home and started playing games on it.  There is absolutely NO comparison in terms of picture clarity and sharpness.  It seems a shame to put in a wicked video system and then waste it on a CRT.

Also be aware that the reason I pulled the second card out of my system was that in SLI mode I couldn't enable vsync.  I was running 280 fps in AH but with an LCD monitor you NEED vsync or you get screen tearing which is very annoying.  Maybe they've fixed that since it's been a year or so since I did it and maybe ATI never had this problem to begin with but I'd do some research on it before moving forward with Crossfire or SLI.

Obviously it's your money and your decision and you can do as you please.  Just know that we've all been through most of this before and we really are just trying to help you allocate your budget for the most satisfying result possible.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2010, 10:50:41 AM by BaldEagl »
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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: New computer - research almost done
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2010, 01:12:51 PM »
If you're going to add a full 1 Ghz to any CPU you're right; you will have to water cool it.  Even then you'll run the risk of premature CPU failure.  You have to understand that a 35% overclock is extreme and that most that do this don't run those machines at those levels in day to day use; they do it for test purposes, benchmarking or bragging rights.

Remember, I got mine to a 32% overclock on air and was still running within the temperature tolerences of the CPU, although somewhat higher than I was comfortable with on a day to day basis (about 65-68C under full load) and I spent a whopping $30 on an Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro.  Is another 3% worth the $400+ you'll spend on liquid cooling?  Regardless of whether you go with liquid or air will you be willing and able to replace the CPU next year due to extreme OCing?

At a 20% OC I'm comfortably under 60C under full load on a hot day.  That's because Intel has built their CPU's with OCing in mind for the enthusiast market but as you begin to exceed the built-in OC tolerances the heat issues increase exponentially and eventually the CPU will fail no matter what you're cooling it with due to exceeding internal voltage tolerences.

As mentioned above, yes, I was using LCD's at work too and didn't see much difference between them and my CRT's at home, that is until I got one at home and started playing games on it.  There is absolutely NO comparison in terms of picture clarity and sharpness.  It seems a shame to put in a wicked video system and then waste it on a CRT.

Also be aware that the reason I pulled the second card out of my system was that in SLI mode I couldn't enable vsync.  I was running 280 fps in AH but with an LCD monitor you NEED vsync or you get screen tearing which is very annoying.  Maybe they've fixed that since it's been a year or so since I did it and maybe ATI never had this problem to begin with but I'd do some research on it before moving forward with Crossfire or SLI.

Obviously it's your money and your decision and you can do as you please.  Just know that we've all been through most of this before and we really are just trying to help you allocate your budget for the most satisfying result possible.

Excellent post Bald.
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Offline oneway

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Re: New computer - research almost done
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2010, 08:58:46 PM »
Excellent post Bald.

And at a 20% upclock (Crush's fall back from peak) you can ash can the H2O...temps can be well contained within the published limits of the proc...on Air...check out Noctua's i7 cooler...I use one and idle stock 29C...

Water is a complete hassle to deal with...every time you want to break your box down to add/swap hardware it turns a trivial task into a non-trivial task...

On liquid it is only a matter of time before your system springs a leak...needless to say computers and water do not get along well together...

As Crush said...unless your pushing your system for 3DMark scores...day to day operation with mild up clocks can be handled completely on Air Alone...

Save yourself the trouble and hassle and find an air solution to your cooling needs...

And buy the LCD...

Oneway
« Last Edit: May 03, 2010, 09:02:35 PM by oneway »

Offline Chalenge

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Re: New computer - research almost done
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2010, 01:13:10 AM »
... It's not that we are against water cooling...

Im completely against water cooling... for any reason. Spending extra money to shorten the lifespan of your equipment just isnt smart. Ever. Even if you dont overclock your playing with fire.
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Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: New computer - research almost done
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2010, 08:35:51 AM »
Im completely against water cooling... for any reason. Spending extra money to shorten the lifespan of your equipment just isnt smart. Ever. Even if you dont overclock your playing with fire.

Actually it's playing with water.

Paying 100 bucks extra to get a performance increase of 200-300 bucks more expensive cpu is smart if you know what you're doing. Not only that, the same watercooling rig can later be transferred to a new rig and ooze extra performance again. Kind of an upgrade of an upgrade. Watercooling can serve to extend the lifespan of your hardware (i.e. if you watercool and not overclock, keeping stress temperatures near ambient).

It's not a necessity that a watercooling system will ever leak one drop of coolant anywhere. Yes, it can happen and beginners usually learn the hard way. But it doesn't have to.

The anti-overclocking crowd is always worried about the lifespan of components. All of my computers (apples excluded) are overclocked. Yet they last way beyond their useful life and I end up dumping perfectly good outdated hardware to trash when I upgrade the boxes. In 4-5 years a component is not worth the plastic in the trashbag.
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Offline Tigger29

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Re: New computer - research almost done
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2010, 11:35:32 AM »
Well I noticed that Bino hasn't been back in a few days.  I'm guessing that he was waiting for us to give him all kinds of 'ooohs' and 'aaahs' over what he's planning to do and when that didn't happen, he just moved on.

I still stand by my post though.  It's simple common courtesy.  He has to get permission from the wife to purchase these components (he said himself the reason he's not yet upgrading the CRT is because the wife might not approve an extra $200).  I have a feeling that she has no idea that his modifications will void warranties, otherwise she's have bigger problems with this whole deal than the price of an LCD monitor.

All I'm saying is that if I was in his shoes, and was given an $1800 budget, I could build a MUCH FASTER and reliable system without having to modify it like that (INCLUDING A NICE LCD).

Now if I got my kicks out of doing such modifications, it may be a different story... but only if it were my money (and mine alone) to play with.

Offline Chalenge

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Re: New computer - research almost done
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2010, 03:24:36 PM »
Actually it's playing with water...

How very clever of you.  :rolleyes:

No matter how you think of it if you increase voltage to the point where you need water cooling then you are taking lifespan off your components. I usually upgrade every three to six months and components will easily last that long and yet I dont use water.

I also think your endorsement could cost a noob a lot of hard to come by cash. Way to go.
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Offline Bino

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Re: New computer - research almost done
« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2010, 03:42:50 PM »
Well I noticed that Bino hasn't been back in a few days.  I'm guessing that he was waiting for us to give him all kinds of 'ooohs' and 'aaahs' over what he's planning to do and when that didn't happen, he just moved on.

I still stand by my post though.  It's simple common courtesy.  He has to get permission from the wife to purchase these components (he said himself the reason he's not yet upgrading the CRT is because the wife might not approve an extra $200).  I have a feeling that she has no idea that his modifications will void warranties, otherwise she's have bigger problems with this whole deal than the price of an LCD monitor.

All I'm saying is that if I was in his shoes, and was given an $1800 budget, I could build a MUCH FASTER and reliable system without having to modify it like that (INCLUDING A NICE LCD).

Now if I got my kicks out of doing such modifications, it may be a different story... but only if it were my money (and mine alone) to play with.

Tigger, I find your attitude... puzzling.  Thanks for your input, sir, but I think you and I are done.   :salute


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Offline Tigger29

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Re: New computer - research almost done
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2010, 01:28:39 AM »
Hrmmm well I find your wanting to water-cool yet stick with a CRT to be puzzling... but to each their own.

Offline guncrasher

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Re: New computer - research almost done
« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2010, 02:13:57 AM »
Hrmmm well I find your wanting to water-cool yet stick with a CRT to be puzzling... but to each their own.

give your opinion or say what you have to say but ultimately is his choice.  If he does right or wrong is really up to him. 

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