Author Topic: So....  (Read 10823 times)

Offline phatzo

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Re: So....
« Reply #135 on: June 28, 2010, 10:27:24 PM »
I've got it at my place
No thank you Turkish, I'm sweet enough.

Offline Brooke

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Re: So....
« Reply #136 on: June 29, 2010, 01:29:56 AM »
The CO's haven't been picked yet, so there's nothing secret going on.  The phase of gathering volunteers is still where we're at.

As for the registration, folks will register for the squadron/group they want to fly for, and that's what they'll fly.  CO's won't be moving people around.  It is more realistic (as commanders in WWII didn't get to pick their guys and swap them all over the place -- they got the pilots the military system sent them), but the reason is as follows.

We tried fine-grained registration for one past scenario (Tunisia, I think), but with allowing the CO to move people around.  That wasn't the way to go as there ended up being no point being so fine grained when the whole mix would be redone anyway.  So, we went to registering for broad classes (fighters, bombers, for example), which tend to stay intact.

Now, it's time to try it this way and see what people think -- if they like it better or not as much.

One of the thing we are trying are ways to reduce the work that a CO has to do and so to broaden the potential supply of CO's.  We try new things from time to time in scenarios to see if there are better ways of doing things.

Offline phatzo

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Re: So....
« Reply #137 on: June 29, 2010, 04:18:36 AM »

Edit: nvm  silly self answering question.
No thank you Turkish, I'm sweet enough.

Online perdue3

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Re: So....
« Reply #138 on: June 29, 2010, 10:27:35 AM »
My predicament is the CiC's will definitely have some influence on which side I fly.






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Offline Fencer51

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Re: So....
« Reply #139 on: June 29, 2010, 11:14:36 AM »
Understandable, but the COs interaction with the operations will be greatly reduced.  GLs should be doing more of the workload, actually managing their own units.  The order/tasks of each unit are posted with the writeup.  Personally it always comes down to where my friends are going to fly.
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Offline skribetm

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Re: So....
« Reply #140 on: June 29, 2010, 12:36:03 PM »
the american pirates will not see it coming.
we r ninjas, and we are fierce! purrr!


Offline WMLute

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Re: So....
« Reply #141 on: June 29, 2010, 02:28:06 PM »
Understandable, but the COs interaction with the operations will be greatly reduced.  GLs should be doing more of the workload, actually managing their own units.  The order/tasks of each unit are posted with the writeup.  Personally it always comes down to where my friends are going to fly.
I just realized that the entire Scenario was scripted.

I know I have complained about "scripted" Scenarios in the past but this one LITERALLY is scripted.

Every frame it has been decided who will attack where, with what and when.

They even have every groups orders posted.

Hey Fencer, which side did you decide would win?

Please rename this event a "Reenactment" as opposed to a Scenario because this is about as far from what the community has known as a "Scenario" for the past 15-20yrs as it could possibly be.


My predicament is the CiC's will definitely have some influence on which side I fly.
perdweeb

It doesn't matter perdweeb.  They have already decided what is going to happen.  No point really in actually FLYING the thing.

The CO's in this event don't 'do' anything.  No planning (done already) needed so who really cares what figurehead is inserted as the CO's?  The outcome of the event has been decided in advance.

« Last Edit: June 29, 2010, 02:34:34 PM by WMLute »
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Offline Beefcake

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Re: So....
« Reply #142 on: June 29, 2010, 03:48:47 PM »
I just want to have a good time fly'n my B25's and blowing some stuff up. I want to put past events behind me and look forward to a fun scenario regardless of who wins. These events are about the only reason I continue to play as I rarely hit the MA's anymore.
Retired Bomber Dweeb - 71 "Eagle" Squadron RAF

Offline Wildcat1

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Re: So....
« Reply #143 on: June 29, 2010, 03:57:10 PM »
I just realized that the entire Scenario was scripted.

I know I have complained about "scripted" Scenarios in the past but this one LITERALLY is scripted.

 :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry

Hey Fencer, which side did you decide would win?

 :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry

No planning (done already) needed so who really cares what figurehead is inserted as the CO's?  The outcome of the event has been decided in advance.

 :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry



really man? just fly it to have fun. if you lose, have fun in the process
having fun and getting killed since tour 110
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Offline Fencer51

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Re: So....
« Reply #144 on: June 29, 2010, 04:07:11 PM »
Hey Fencer, which side did you decide would win?

The one that had the most fun, naturally.
Fencer
The names of the irrelevant have been changed to protect their irrelevance.
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As for the innocent, everyone needs to know they are innocent –
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Offline oneway

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Re: So....
« Reply #145 on: June 29, 2010, 05:16:14 PM »
The CO's haven't been picked yet, so there's nothing secret going on.  The phase of gathering volunteers is still where we're at.

As for the registration, folks will register for the squadron/group they want to fly for, and that's what they'll fly.  CO's won't be moving people around.  It is more realistic (as commanders in WWII didn't get to pick their guys and swap them all over the place -- they got the pilots the military system sent them), but the reason is as follows.

We tried fine-grained registration for one past scenario (Tunisia, I think), but with allowing the CO to move people around.  That wasn't the way to go as there ended up being no point being so fine grained when the whole mix would be redone anyway.  So, we went to registering for broad classes (fighters, bombers, for example), which tend to stay intact.

Now, it's time to try it this way and see what people think -- if they like it better or not as much.

One of the thing we are trying are ways to reduce the work that a CO has to do and so to broaden the potential supply of CO's.  We try new things from time to time in scenarios to see if there are better ways of doing things.

I have a horrible habit of looking out for possible unintended consequence and generally believe that it is human nature to exploit an environment...virtual or otherwise...its in their DNA...

---------------------

The first thing that came to mind is an abuse of the walk on system. As it stands now, and has stood in the past, there is no mechanism to prevent walk-on players from logging into the arena, switching to the country they see fit, slapping on some colors and blending seamlessly into the background.

For instance, player X tells players Y and Z a day or two prior to an event, to just show up on event day, switch to country A, and come to field ##.

Though laudable, setting up a tight system of registration, without a system of checks and balances, would seem to invite an abuse of the walk-on system.

------------------------

The second thing that caught my eye was the  absence of consequence. Without consequence I see little hope in meaningfully changing much if anything. If the law of the land is to act in accordance with a directive, then violating the law should/must have consequence such as being banned from the rest of the scenario.

--------

Lastly I think that some additional thought and coverage in the new rules should address the special purpose roles not clearly defined or demarcated through squadrons or groups. Some that come to mind are the driving of ships and manning of ship guns. As was the case in Coral Sea, it turned out to be advantageous to script orders and groups specifically dedicated to this task. I think it would be wise to address this in your formulation of the rules.

As a for instance, we created a special unit of 6 people to handle cruiser guns and ship driving. They were carved out of several different units and they formed a squad that in essence attached them to one of the larger SBD units and gave them -G designator to differentiate them from the normal SBD guys. Once their gunning duties had expired, they rejoined their compatriots for the back half of the frame flying their assigned aircraft.

This is the sort of creativity and dynamic use of manpower that I hope is not quashed by a strictly written and interpreted rule.

---------

Out

Oneway

Edit: And a final thought...or two...

Reducing the workload of the CO to attract more CO candidates will produce a different kind of CO than a system that demands a high level of commitment.

The ability to move people around has no appreciable impact on CO workload.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2010, 05:32:20 PM by oneway »

Offline WMLute

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Re: So....
« Reply #146 on: June 29, 2010, 05:33:22 PM »
The one that had the most fun, naturally.
All attempted "clever" remarks aside, I do want you to answer why this was done.

What was the thought process behind it.
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Offline Babalonian

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Re: So....
« Reply #147 on: June 29, 2010, 06:17:53 PM »
All attempted "clever" remarks aside, I do want you to answer why this was done.

What was the thought process behind it.

With great power comes great responcibility.  Abuse it and we take away your cookies.

The point of a scenario is so that we get a lot of players together to have fun in a non-MA-like historical episode.  A CO's job was to do this while making tactical decisions to bring about victory for their team.  Unfortunatley in the the last few scenarios, certain COs back-burnered the "lets all get together and have some fun" to put gaming the game, victory at the cost of half the participant's enjoyment, and to a point their personal reputations and egos ahead of everyone having a fun time.  It's stale bread for all this time, which is better than half the participants having fun and the other half demanding something be done or else more fun can be found for two-three hours in the MA.

And yes, I call it "stale bread", but it really won't be stale, predicatable yes, but I have absolutely no doubt now that everyone will have some fun in this scenario, not just some of them.

Hi, my name is Bab, and I'm a participant in this next scenario and I'm going to have fun. 

And I'd gladly volunteer to CO if my schedule permited this scenario, so what if I can't do the battle "my way", as long as we all have fun it's the "only way" as far as I'm concerned.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2010, 06:25:52 PM by Babalonian »
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Wow, you guys need help.

Offline oneway

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Re: So....
« Reply #148 on: June 29, 2010, 10:11:01 PM »
With great power comes great responcibility.  Abuse it and we take away your cookies.

The point of a scenario is so that we get a lot of players together to have fun in a non-MA-like historical episode.  A CO's job was to do this while making tactical decisions to bring about victory for their team.  Unfortunatley in the the last few scenarios, certain COs back-burnered the "lets all get together and have some fun" to put gaming the game, victory at the cost of half the participant's enjoyment, and to a point their personal reputations and egos ahead of everyone having a fun time.  It's stale bread for all this time, which is better than half the participants having fun and the other half demanding something be done or else more fun can be found for two-three hours in the MA.

And yes, I call it "stale bread", but it really won't be stale, predicatable yes, but I have absolutely no doubt now that everyone will have some fun in this scenario, not just some of them.

Hi, my name is Bab, and I'm a participant in this next scenario and I'm going to have fun.  

And I'd gladly volunteer to CO if my schedule permited this scenario, so what if I can't do the battle "my way", as long as we all have fun it's the "only way" as far as I'm concerned.

There is an assumed and incumbent responsibility for all sub-command officers within a command structure that stretches and reaches far beyond their immediate responsibility to a side...

And that is to the game itself...

Preservation of the game is every players primary responsibility...

Beyond that...we can argue...without that we are doomed to fail...

Out

Oneway

Edit: spelling within
« Last Edit: June 29, 2010, 10:17:27 PM by oneway »

Offline Brooke

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Re: So....
« Reply #149 on: June 30, 2010, 04:28:12 AM »
We try new things from time to time in scenarios.  We are trying mission orders in this one, and we'll see what people think.  For anything we try, there are people who hate it, whatever it is that we try.  The question is whether or not a large majority of players like it.

If people in general dislike it, we will take the feedback into account and do things differently next time.

The issues we are trying to improve are as follows.  We want to broaden out the potential supply of CO's, so we want to give them a starting point rather than requiring them to craft missions from scratch.  We want to decrease how much players' enjoyment of a scenario hinges on strategies made from scratch by two CO's.  We want to decrease the probability that players fly around for hours with no action or get only missions that are totally historically unrealistic.  (Note, flying around without action is not the fault of CO's -- when there is no structure, a CO has no way of knowing if a particular asset will or won't be attacked.)

Basically, we want to give the general players a higher probability that they will be flying missions that have the feel of the history of the battle and that they see action.  From these players' point of view, it doesn't matter whether or not a scenario is a simulation for the CO of him being the whole HQ or is getting orders from HQ.

These aren't re-enactments stipulating who wins and every aspect that goes on.  A side will still have plenty to decide and plenty hinging on their execution and tactics.  Consider Rangoon and Der Grosse Schlag.  People enjoyed those scenarios, didn't at all complain about there being too much specification, and those are more determined than Philippine Phandango.  In Rangoon, for example, the target is specified, and the mission is exactly known every frame.  The challenge is in the execution, details of how the bombers go to Rangoon, details on how escort, screens, sweeps, scouts, etc. are done.  Some people might not like Rangoon, but a lot of people do like it.  There is no absolute right or wrong, but a matter of preference.

If we picked to run a scenario that is absolutely perfect from any particular point of view, there would also be a group of people who hate it and get all worked up about it.  That can't be avoided, but what we can do is to try different things and see how it goes, to see if aspects that the great majority of players don't like can be reduced.

(By the way, for those of you who want totally open fights, with no restrictions at all, no mission requirements, no player-enforced rules, nothing but a simple scoring system and historically themed assets to deploy, anything goes, please try out "This Day in WWII".  Be a CO for that -- you can deploy whatever strategy and tactics you want.)
« Last Edit: June 30, 2010, 04:33:07 AM by Brooke »