Author Topic: Real Gun Film. How much hipsano does it take to light up a B17?  (Read 7191 times)

Offline Mug123

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Re: Real Gun Film. How much hipsano does it take to light up a B17?
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2013, 09:49:38 PM »
Greetings to the discussion group,

I have a lot of information regarding many of the mosquitos on the evening of 6th OCT 1944.
However, When I use the link to the film below it does not work anymore.

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=53552


Does anyone know where this film has gone and If it is still available. It may answer some very important questions about action on 6th OCT which are puzzling many people.
Thanks in anticipation.

Mug

Offline Scherf

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Re: Real Gun Film. How much hipsano does it take to light up a B17?
« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2013, 10:26:38 PM »
It's on youtube now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je_EYjcK8Bw

What questions are there?
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline BaldEagl

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Re: Real Gun Film. How much hipsano does it take to light up a B17?
« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2013, 11:31:43 PM »
Greetings to the discussion group,

I have a lot of information regarding many of the mosquitos on the evening of 6th OCT 1944.
However, When I use the link to the film below it does not work anymore.

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=53552


Does anyone know where this film has gone and If it is still available. It may answer some very important questions about action on 6th OCT which are puzzling many people.
Thanks in anticipation.

Mug

I think the "discussion group" broke up slightly over three years ago.
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.

Offline moot

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Re: Real Gun Film. How much hipsano does it take to light up a B17?
« Reply #33 on: August 06, 2013, 11:52:25 PM »
Yes most of the above users are now persona non grata
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Offline Brooke

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Re: Real Gun Film. How much hipsano does it take to light up a B17?
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2013, 02:03:58 AM »
Most of them are still around.

Offline 63tb

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Re: Real Gun Film. How much hipsano does it take to light up a B17?
« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2013, 07:38:36 AM »
Wasn't Guy Gibson killed in a friendly fire incident while flying a Mossie?

63tb

Offline Scherf

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Re: Real Gun Film. How much hipsano does it take to light up a B17?
« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2013, 07:59:24 AM »
Hmmm, as I understand it, an old boy who'd been a rear gunner claimed, very recently, to have opened fire on what he thought was a Ju 88 on that night, afterwards felt that "it must have been me."

Not sure how much credence I give that. Have not read of Gibson's aircraft having shown evidence of gunfire. Still think the original explanation, fuel starvation due to insufficient understanding of the aircraft's fuel system, is far more likely.
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline SIK1

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Re: Real Gun Film. How much hipsano does it take to light up a B17?
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2013, 11:48:16 AM »
Yes most of the above users are now persona non grata

Actually it looks as though not a single user in this thread is PNG.

It is however over three years old.
444th Air Mafia since Air Warrior
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Real Gun Film. How much hipsano does it take to light up a B17?
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2013, 10:11:01 PM »
Hmmm, as I understand it, an old boy who'd been a rear gunner claimed, very recently, to have opened fire on what he thought was a Ju 88 on that night, afterwards felt that "it must have been me."

Not sure how much credence I give that. Have not read of Gibson's aircraft having shown evidence of gunfire. Still think the original explanation, fuel starvation due to insufficient understanding of the aircraft's fuel system, is far more likely.

I saw the articles about the rear gunner possibly shooting down Gibson.  I think it's a bit like the Glen Miller story where the Lanc dropped a bomb that knocked down his plane.  We'll never know.

That Mossie has the blister on the top of the canopy that is seen on lots of the PR birds.  Seems like we've discussed this one before too.  The 4th pilots each got half credit for a 'Ju88" I believe.  There's even better known film of a PR Spitfire XI getting chopped by friendly fire out there too.

Scary to watch that stuff and think that folks are dying for real.  I seem to recall we determined the ID of that Mossie too and that both crew were killed :(

The other fascinating piece of film in that batch is early on with a 479th 38 pilot just about to light up a 109 when another 38 cuts across his nose.  bet he never saw him.
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: Real Gun Film. How much hipsano does it take to light up a B17?
« Reply #39 on: August 08, 2013, 09:58:24 AM »
The other fascinating piece of film in that batch is early on with a 479th 38 pilot just about to light up a 109 when another 38 cuts across his nose.  bet he never saw him.


Good thing killshooter was turned off.

- oldman

Offline Widewing

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Re: Real Gun Film. How much hipsano does it take to light up a B17?
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2013, 11:36:42 AM »
This is an interesting film...

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/military-store-dump/query/B17

Most P-51Bs do not yet have unit markings. However, the one with markings belongs to the 354th FG of the 9th AF. This Fighter Group was operationally transferred to the 8th AF because it was the only P-51 group in the ETO in November 1943. They flew the first Mustang escort missions. The P-47s belong to the 4th FG. One P-47C, marked WD-X was transferred to the 56th FG when the 4th transitioned to the P-51B. The next P-47C was the plane assigned to Lt. Robert J. Messenger, and was transferred to the 368th FG when the P-51s went on combat status. The last P-47 taking off is "Reggie's Reply", belonging to Major Johnny Godfrey. It's a P-47D-1-RE, SN 42-7884. The aircraft depicted in the film, including early a few B-17G-1 bombers, indicates to me that the film probably dates to December of 1943. The 4th FG was stationed at Debden, but this film was not shot at Debden. Debden did not have three runways. Seeing as there are all types of fighters and bombers, I suspect the location was the Honington Air Depot.

Fascinating film.....
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline morfiend

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Re: Real Gun Film. How much hipsano does it take to light up a B17?
« Reply #41 on: August 10, 2013, 12:31:59 PM »
ID-ing aircraft in flight isn't as easy as you might think, especially if you're in combat or other high-stress situation.  The biggest problem is that you have a tendancy to see what you expect (or want) to see and many features that seem obvious to the casual observer just aren't to someone under stress, even something like roundels.  For instance, the F111 and Mig23 look amazingly similar even though the F111 is twice the size of the Flogger and the Mig23 has a big sawtooth leading edge on the wing that's very visible.  Put them next to each other on the ground and there's absolutely no way you'd mistake them for each other but put them in the air and it's a completely different story.  The 1994 shoot down of two US Army Blackhawks during OPC (Northern Iraqi no-fly zone following the first Gulf War) happened even though the AWACS knew there were friendlies in the area and the Eagles had IFF interrogators and both fighters did a Visual ID.  The Blackhawks were carrying external tanks (not a real common configuration) and looked very similar to Iraqi Hinds.  They expected to see Hinds, wanted to see Hinds, and saw "Hinds".  I ran into a fighter about 20 miles off the coast of Vladivostok in 1986 that I thought at first was an F4 off Midway or maybe a JSDF F4 but it turned out to be a Soviet SU15 Flagon, the same interceptor the Soviets used to shoot down the KAL 007 airliner three years earlier (not too far away from where I was).  Coming beak to beak with him we had our TCS (a high power TV camera under the nose) on him and I saw a low wing, two large, rectangular intakes, and a big old nose and remember thinking "what the heck is an F4 doing coming FROM Soviet airspace?".  I realized what it was only when I saw that the wings were flat and the tips didn't crank up like the Phantom's.  I really knew what he was when he pickled his drop tanks to play.  I guess he didn't like seeing a Tomcat that close to Vlad.  :D



  I have never been in combat but I spent a couple of minutes in the boxing ring and the first thing that happens to me is I loose all peripheral vision. Ya you could "train" to help this but I always got a sort of tunnel vision.

   I'm wondering if fighter pilots experience{d} the same type of thing?   As I understand it it's part of the fight or flight response.  I would think that this could come into play when IDing friend or foe. I didn't have that issue,I knew the other guy wasn't going to be friendly from the start..... :devil


  It's a very interesting topic,a bit morbid but I find it fascinating.



    :salute

Offline save

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Re: Real Gun Film. How much hipsano does it take to light up a B17?
« Reply #42 on: August 10, 2013, 07:37:17 PM »
That's what you have a wingman for.

Old hares always looked back for wingman and cons before doing his deed.

Fights in AH tend to be everyone for himself, and if you fight in teams often you get it on 200/private for doing it.



My ammo last for 6 Lancasters, or one Yak3.
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Real Gun Film. How much hipsano does it take to light up a B17?
« Reply #43 on: August 10, 2013, 11:19:32 PM »
This is an interesting film...

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/military-store-dump/query/B17

Most P-51Bs do not yet have unit markings. However, the one with markings belongs to the 354th FG of the 9th AF. This Fighter Group was operationally transferred to the 8th AF because it was the only P-51 group in the ETO in November 1943. They flew the first Mustang escort missions. The P-47s belong to the 4th FG. One P-47C, marked WD-X was transferred to the 56th FG when the 4th transitioned to the P-51B. The next P-47C was the plane assigned to Lt. Robert J. Messenger, and was transferred to the 368th FG when the P-51s went on combat status. The last P-47 taking off is "Reggie's Reply", belonging to Major Johnny Godfrey. It's a P-47D-1-RE, SN 42-7884. The aircraft depicted in the film, including early a few B-17G-1 bombers, indicates to me that the film probably dates to December of 1943. The 4th FG was stationed at Debden, but this film was not shot at Debden. Debden did not have three runways. Seeing as there are all types of fighters and bombers, I suspect the location was the Honington Air Depot.

Fascinating film.....


Yes it was.  I was wondering if VF-P might be Godfrey's bird.  I felt better about my Mustang landing skills after the one guy bounced and went around :)
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Mace2004

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Re: Real Gun Film. How much hipsano does it take to light up a B17?
« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2013, 08:32:25 AM »


  I have never been in combat but I spent a couple of minutes in the boxing ring and the first thing that happens to me is I loose all peripheral vision. Ya you could "train" to help this but I always got a sort of tunnel vision.

   I'm wondering if fighter pilots experience{d} the same type of thing?   As I understand it it's part of the fight or flight response.  I would think that this could come into play when IDing friend or foe. I didn't have that issue,I knew the other guy wasn't going to be friendly from the start..... :devil


  It's a very interesting topic,a bit morbid but I find it fascinating.



    :salute
It's actually a huge topic in aviation John.  Becoming too focused on one specific thing is a highly studied problem in aviation and more than just in fights.  Aviation is one of those areas where you really have to be able to simultaneously manage multiple things all at the same time and if you can't control and prioritize your focus then you're not going to be successful.  For instance, maybe you've heard the maxim "aviate, navigate, then communicate?"  This is drilled into your head from the very beginning and comes directly from experiences where pilots (or crews) have flown perfectly good airplanes into the ground simply because they "forgot" to fly the plane and became single-mindedly focused on some other, many times very minor, issues.  The Eastern flight into the Everglades comes to mind. When landing on a CV you have a specific instrument scan (meatball, lineup, angle of attack) that you continually do to make sure you don't forget lineup or get too slow while focused on your flight path (meatball).

This ability is so overwhelmingly important in aviation that there are countless terms, maxims, and aphorisms used to remind pilots what they should be doing such as "Keep thy airspeed up, less the earth come from below and smite thee." Other terms are "instrument scan," "situational awareness," "boresighting," and "target fixation."  The second and third terms come directly from situations where a pilot is so intensely focused on precisely placing his pipper on a target (for bombs or air-to-air) that he ends up flying right into his target.  Generally though, they can be used to describe any situation where the pilot's ability to manage, prioritize and time-share multiple tasks breaks down in an uncontrolled fashion. 

To go directly to your question yes, it's a real issue in a fight.  The more intense a fight for instance, the more likely it is that the pilots aren't looking at much else except each other.  In other words, their situational awareness breaks down.  You have to constantly remind yourself to take a quick look around until it becomes second nature.
Mace
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