F4U1D Vrs P51D

[Jinx]

F4UDOA,

I think you might want to take another look at your sources.

The first production –1 had a R-2800-8 (2000hp@2700rpm) without the water injection, that came with the R-2800-8W and the –1D..

And I think you will find that the F4U-5 put out more the 2800hp.

I believe even the R-2800-42W used in the F4U-4 turned out well over 2700hp, something like 2760 on WEP.

I don’t have my sources here at work, but I’m sure someone will correct me if Im wrong..  

  -Jinx

[Vermillion]

Indian, he is quoting the "4800 fpm" for a F4U-4, from the document that is linked above in Rockets post from the 214th website.

Actually its originally from the Navy Aviation History Office Website ( http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org4-8.htm  ) which has some great original declassified flight test data from many WWII Navy Aircraft.

 

On the previous page from the chart I just posted, it lists a climb to 20k of 4.9 mins for the same condition aircraft (gross weight and power setting).

Not that I agree with his conclusion and comparison of the F4U-1 and the F4U-4 though, they are different beasts.

So HT, since we're doing variants next, I can assume we're gonna get a -4 Corsair,and the 190D real soon?   Say in two weeks right?


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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires "

[Pyro]

A few points- best climb speeds are different on the planes and none of them are as high as 200.  I can't find a reference that gives any F4U-1 a TC to 20k of 7 minutes.  They are typically in the 8.5 to 10.5 range for 20k.  You cite AHT as your main source.  AHT gives a TC to 20k of 7 minutes for the F4U-4 under mil power.  For the same conditions, it gives the -1A/D a TC to 20k of 10 minutes.  Initial climb rate in mil power is cited at 2500 fpm.  This is significantly slower than the 2700 fpm in AH.  If I only looked at the sources you cite, I would draw the opposite conclusion- that the F4U in AH climbs too well.



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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations

"The side with the fanciest uniforms loses."

[Fishu]

F4U Vrs P51D -> Dog Vrs UFO

[F4UDOA]

First off I would like to say that I am extremely impressed with the level of knowledge on this BBS. Second I want to say that I am only now realize that I am talking to some of the games designers. Kudo's to you gentleman for giving me an opportunity to do and discuss what I love so much.

However Pyro. In AHT on page 511 using combat power the F4U-1 reaches 20k well under 8min.
It is a graph so it is difficult to see the exact time but it is definitly in the 7+min. range. But more importantly is the comparison
onpages 596 and 597. Were climb times for the P-51D at Military power are clearly shown as being in excess of 8min. More toward 10min in fact. Were as the F4U-1d can be seen to reach the 20k mark at combat power in 8min. or less. This again is actual army and navy data
not to be confused with inflated numbers of the product manufactures. And as long as we are reading from the same sheet music the comments on the various fighters through out the book lead to some other points. The trimmabilty in the AH is very difficult were as the Corsair was the second most stable A/C
to the F6F and superior to its army couterparts. Also it rated second in Ailerons
at 350mph and at 100mph. My point is that this a/c is currently modeled as being way to tempermental in it's handeling. Remember this a/c had issues landing at speeds under 100mph. Also this problem was resolved in the F4U-1D by the addition of a small spoiler strip on the port wing. So the stability in the flight model leaves something to be desired. Anyway Blah, blah, blah, blah...
I'm tired of hearing myself type.

Flying badly at an airstrip near you
=DOA=

[Mr.ED]

Dudes,

The Pony VS Hawg, who's best, is an age old argument. Go to your browsers and search for "hawg vs pony" there is an old timer that has a whole web site dedicated to this very subject. He even has interviews with pilots to generals. I e-mailed him because I was agast with the account where the Army & Navy mock battled these two planes.

FYI

Mr.ED
Pony Pilot
Knight

[indian]

F4UDOA if you look at the horse power to altitude chart you will see that the -4 looses less at altitude then the -1. This is due to design changes and an improved two stage blower system. The -4 almost looses less hp then the -1 has normally take a look it pretty close.


Hitech you sure about the four bladed prop being for low altitude thought is was for higher altitudes to bite less dense air better. They actually made it 2" smaller then the three blade prop was (13'.2" to 13'.4"). If I could find my book on props I would look up the benifits of the four blades vs three. F4U's need 20mm.

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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
  Cherokee Indian
My Homepage
Where you can find the Key Commands in  files for Word6 Wordpad and text mode.

indians Homepage

Aces High Word6 and Wordpad Doc's available on my web site.

[F4UDOA]

Mr. Ed,

Were oh were is this web site. I'm searching in vain for this oasis of knowledge.

Gratefully
=DOA=

[funked]

Gabbys and I hashed this out on the iEN board already.  There was an engine change during the F4U-4 production.  I forgot the numbers, but it was from R2800-XXW to R2800-YYW.  Anyways those F4U-4 charts above are for the later engine, and the charts in AHT are for the earlier engine.

Wish I could remember the engine variants...

[Windle]

R-2800-16W  
 to
 
R-2800-32W

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~Lt. Jg. Windle~

VF-17 The Jolly Rogers 8X
      Skychrgr@aol.com    

[BBGunn]

I've always thought that the Corsair was a remarkable piece of engineering.  Just to add a little to the above I would recommend Walter Musciano's book entitled Corsair Aces-The Bent-Wing Bird Over the Pacific.
To paraphrase this source it was noted that during January of 1943 the F4U-1 was flown in test combat against a P51(don't know what model) and the Corsair outfought the 51 above 12,000ft and was said to be an even match for the Army fighter below 12,000.  During May  1943 the F4U-1 was flown against the P39, 47 , 38 and 51 and the dogfights "all resulted favorably for the Corsair".  The Navy pilot Butch O'Hare stated that the F6F was no match for the F4U.

It is also of interest that the US Navy was not the first to use the F4U for carrier operations but it was the British who saw that the advantages of this fighter outweighed its tendency to bounce upon landing-and put the Corsair to good use.  The F4U was even used in attacks against the Tirpitz in Norway.  It was not until April 1944, when after pilots from VF-301 made 113 landings on the carrier Gambier Bay without mishap, that the Navy finally endorsed the use of the F4U.  We should also not forget that that Charles Lindberg took off with a bomb load of 4000 lbs! showing that the design limits of the Vought machine could be exceeded.  I think the machine speaks for itself.


 

[SnakeEyes]

That test was against an Allison-engined P-51, BBGun.

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[F4UDOA]

Hmm,

Negative snake eyes. That test was done against a P-51B with a Merlin engine. This data can be found in the fighter aircraft bible. "America's Hundred Thousand" or AHT for short. Specifcally page 24. Quote "Except at altitudes above 25,000 ft. there was little to choose from between the Corsair and the Army Merlin powered P-51 in speed. And head to head performance test showed the Navy aircraft could outclimb the P-51."

Sorry snake eyes
F4UDOA

[SnakeEyes]

You are quoting climb data.  He was quoting mock dogfight data.  Here are some additional reasons why you are wrong:

The very first production P-51Bs were not delivered until May/June 1943.  The mock dogfights were held in January and May 1943.  The P-51B prototypes only made their first flight on November 30, 1942.  

The AHT data refers to the P-51B as having a performance advantage above 25K.  The data BBGun quoted said that the P-51 was "even" under 12K, and that the F4U outperformed it over 12K.

The Allison-engined P-51(A) had outstanding low altitude performance (e.g. - under 15K).  This correlates well with BBGun's data, and poorly with yours.

Seems to me that you're mixing and matching your facts.  Maybe you might think of picking up another source or two?

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[This message has been edited by SnakeEyes (edited 12-28-1999).]

[spinny]

I'm sure Snake is right, the 51 in question had to be the Allison-equipped version. Heh...I think Kepford was grounded for a week or two for dogfighting a 51B over Miami...great show, but evidently scared the bejesus out of the groundlings.


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Spinny, VF-17, The Jolly Rogers 8X