My question is: How can you maintain a high G turn at very high speeds; generally 400+ MPH. This is somewhat of a "re hash" of a question that I've asked on the BBS before but, maybe I didn't ask it/word it correctly. I still got some great information but came away with the feeling that most thought it was not useful in the MA as a tactic to get to a rear hemisphere shooting solution or, maybe any shooting solution on most planes that turn well at lower speeds(zeke/Spit?/109,Ki-84, others?). This is different then going straight down to "dive out" at compression speed hoping the other plane brakes or, the downward spiral tactic where you're pointed straight down but trying to go slower hoping the other guy overshoots. This would be helpful for planes like the F4U/P-51/P-40; planes that were known for their ability to turn well and maintain control at high speeds.
Offline I took an F4U up to 11K and put the nose down slightly to get my speed up to 400MPH. I then rolled 90degrees and let the nose remain slightly angled down. I maintained my turn over 400MPH riding the very edge of the blackout. I was able to get 2 complete turns out of the plane at over 400MPH. I lost about 6.5-7K of altitude from when I started my turn at about 10k. I maintained slightly more than 400Mph the entire time. But would this be enough to get me "around" on the planes I listed earlier? With practice has anyone done this and gotten 3 or 4 circles; and is it worth it? I understand a better low speed turning plane could stay a little slower and cut the corner for a shot but, if he missed maybe it would be the only chance he had and I would have more E and be able to go vertical and come down on top of him?
Here is an excerpt from "Fire in the Sky" written by Eric M. Bergerud from an interview with Joel Paris an ace with the 49th Fighter Group's 7th Squadron in New Guinea; he flew the P-40 early in the war: "If you knew what you were doing you could fight a Jap on even terms, but you had to make him fight your way. He could outturn you at slow speed. You could outturn him at high speed. When you got in a turning fight with him, you dropped your nose down so you kept your airspeed up, you could outturn him. At low speed he could outroll you because of those big ailerons; they looked like barn doors on the Zero. If your speed was up over 275, you could outroll it. His big ailerons didn't have the strength to make high-speed rolls; it was like they were set in concrete."
Maybe this better illustrates what I mean by outturning a known T-n-B plane at high speeds.
Some interesting replys to this and some misperceptions. First, start with looking at the physics of the issue and similar vice dissimilar aircraft.
The first question is how do you maintain a 400mph high G turn? Noah has it exactly right, the only way to do this with a WWII aircraft is a nose-low turn. WWII aircraft do not have the excess power required to sustain a six G level turn so it must be nose-low to maintain speed and G.
This really leads to the "why" would you do this question. Remember that if you're above your aircraft's corner velocity (as 400mph is) you are limited to a 6G turn
as is every other AH aircraft. Turn rate and radius is determined by the G you're pulling and your speed so, if you're both pulling 6G at 400mph your turns are exactly the same. OK, so if both aircraft perform the same here is there an defensive advantage? Yes there is if the bandit is already in guns range but there's also a caveat. In order to pull lead the bandit will have to pull greater G than you and, since you're both limited to the same 6Gs, it's impossible for him to do that provided you stay at 6G. Essentially this means you're in a stalemate, the "caveat" comes in you realize that you don't have unlimited altitude to convert to sustain the G so something is going to have to happen otherwise you'll end up on the deck with the bandit in the same guns position he occupied before you started your high-speed spiral. You can put off the inevitable and "hope" that help arrives or the bandit decides he doesn't want to use up all his altitude in pursuit. As we all know "hope" is not a plan (or political strategy) so you need to consider other options such as starting the high-speed spiral and, once the bandit is committed to follow, chop your throttle and skid the plane to slow to corner velocity with the idea of tightening your turn while the bandit keeps going balls to the wall forcing an overshoot.
There are three different outcomes that are possible when it comes to dissimilar aircraft:
--First, there are high high-speed maneuvering limits for some aircraft such as two mentioned, the 109 and Zeke. Both of these aircraft stiffen up at high speeds and are forced to throttle back or bring the nose up to maintain control so the high-speed spiral can take away angles and gain separation.
--Second, is relative P
s. We know all the WWII aircraft will have negative P
s in a 6G turn so have to go nose-low to sustain it but consider a pony vs a hurricane. Both can sustain 400mph turns with identical rates and radius but they are at
different nose-low positions. The Hurri's more negative P
s means he will have to have his nose lower to sustain the turn than the Pony which means the Hurri will be trading altitude for E at a higher rate. The Hurri cannot get a shot due to his G limit and the Pony will gain an altitude and E advantage. Either the Hurri will hit the deck first or the Pony will gain sufficient altitude/E advantage that he can transition to a vertical or separation/pitchback fight.
--The third outcome is arcing. Pulling sustained G's above corner velocity creates a condition known as arcing. That is, you're not turning at your best possible turn rate, your radius is pretty large, and your flight path describes a large, gentle arc in the sky. You're neither gaining angles or separation and bandits can simply operate inside of your turn. Let's go back to the Hurri vs Pony. A smart Hurri will NOT follow a Pony into a high-speed spiral and play the Pony's game. Generally speaking the Hurri has two options. He can sustain 6G but keep his nose up a bit so he bleeds to near his corner velocity rather than sustain 400mph. He then lowers his nose to sustain corner. He will then have a higher rate and smaller radius and will simply turn a tighter circle inside of the Pony's. He will lose altitude quicker than the Pony but he'll gain angles putting him at a position well inside the Pony's turn and a bit lower. Once he gains this position he then goes for his shot leveling his wings a bit and pulling up into the shot. The disadvantage of this approach is that it's a bit difficult to maintain sight of the Pony because it's under his nose. The Pony could reverse and extend and the Hurri not see this in time. The other slightly different option for the Hurri is to again let the Pony arc but pull up into a quick high yo-yo to slow to near corner (for best turn rate and radius) and overbank to put his nose in front of the Pony. (It's important the Hurri doesn't go too high in his yo-yo because that'll let the Pony gain separation even if he is arcing.) The Hurri then dives back down in a low yo-yo and accelerates while cutting across the Pony's arc to go to where the Pony will be. When he arrives there he may have a crossing shot opportunity, if it doesn't look like he's going to have it then he repeats the yo-yo and continues. The downside here is a smart Pony can avoid this by turning to keep the Hurri directly on his six when he tries to high yo-yo. The Pony can then extend away creating separation. Notice that in both of these counters the Pony MUST stop arcing.
So to directly answer the OP's questions. The only way to sustain a 400mph, 6G turn is nose low. No, this sort of turn will not "get you around" on someone's six because you are not flying your best turn rate/radius. If the bandit has a high-speed deficiency than you can use the high-speed turn to redefine the fight and get him off your six but the turn alone doesn't equate to "getting around". High speed fighting should be done at or near your corner velocity for best turn-rate and radius, above that and you're arcing with few advantages except in a limited set of circumstances. Sustained high-speed turns (even at corner) all have a clock running on them called altitude. There's only so much turning you can do before Mother Earth interceds so it's best to think ahead and plan for what you're going to do next.
