Author Topic: Maintaining a High Speed - High G Turn  (Read 1478 times)

Offline Noah17

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Maintaining a High Speed - High G Turn
« on: May 01, 2010, 08:19:37 AM »
My question is: How can you maintain a high G turn at very high speeds; generally 400+ MPH. This is somewhat of a "re hash" of a question that I've asked on the BBS before but, maybe I didn't ask it/word it correctly. I still got some great information but came away with the feeling that most thought it was not useful in the MA as a tactic to get to a rear hemisphere shooting solution or, maybe any shooting solution on most planes that turn well at lower speeds(zeke/Spit?/109,Ki-84, others?). This is different then going straight down to "dive out" at compression speed hoping the other plane brakes or, the downward spiral tactic where you're pointed straight down but trying to go slower hoping the other guy overshoots. This would be helpful for planes like the F4U/P-51/P-40; planes that were known for their ability to turn well and maintain control at high speeds.
    Offline I took an F4U up to 11K and put the nose down slightly to get my speed up to 400MPH. I then rolled 90degrees and let the nose remain slightly angled down. I maintained my turn over 400MPH riding the very edge of the blackout. I was able to get 2 complete turns out of the plane at over 400MPH. I lost about 6.5-7K of altitude from when I started my turn at about 10k. I maintained slightly more than 400Mph the entire time. But would this be enough to get me "around" on the planes I listed earlier? With practice has anyone done this and gotten 3 or 4 circles; and is it worth it? I understand a better low speed turning plane could stay a little slower and cut the corner for a shot but, if he missed maybe it would be the only chance he had and I would have more E and be able to go vertical and come down on top of him?
    Here is an excerpt from "Fire in the Sky" written by Eric M. Bergerud from an interview with Joel Paris an ace with the 49th Fighter Group's 7th Squadron in New Guinea;  he flew the P-40 early in the war: "If you knew what you were doing you could fight a Jap on even terms, but you had to make him fight your way. He could outturn you at slow speed. You could outturn him at high speed. When you got in a turning fight with him, you dropped your nose down so you kept your airspeed up, you could outturn him. At low speed he could outroll you because of those big ailerons; they looked like barn doors on the Zero. If your speed was up over 275, you could outroll it. His big ailerons didn't have the strength to make high-speed rolls; it was like they were set in concrete."
    Maybe this better illustrates what I mean by outturning a known T-n-B plane at high speeds.

Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Maintaining a High Speed - High G Turn
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2010, 09:14:40 AM »
I understand your question, but again, comparing real life with the game is apples and oranges.

Yes you want to force the other plane to fight your fight, but that only works with-in a certain area. Being a game, "death" isn't a factor in most cases, as well as winning the fight for a "tactical" reason, so most "fighter rules" are thrown out the window.

You keep your speed up, and I'll go look for a different fight. To me it looks like your running  :D Eventually your going to have to make a guns pass. It then becomes just another BnZ pass and I react according to your speed and angle to give myself the best angle for my shot, or to force you to burn the most "E". And it continues. Either you loose the "E" and fight my way   :devil  or your BnZ long enough for some "picker" to show up.

I don't see where maintaining 400 is going to help you. It takes you a half mile to make one turn at 400, I can make 3 at a slower speed. How are you going to get on my tail?

Offline Big Rat

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Re: Maintaining a High Speed - High G Turn
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2010, 09:35:03 AM »
Noah17,

Along with what Fugitive said, you'll also have the trouble of target tracking in a high speed turn like that.  All they have to do is be out of your plane of travel(offset from line of travel), and you are going to have a hard time picking them up.  In which case you'll have to slow down to re-aquire and the entire exercise was moot.  If you are referring to this exercise in requards to a hog vs a better turning slower airplane, you have better options.  One of the best things you can do in this game is spar with a good stick with the airplanes you are having trouble with, with the aircraft you are trying to learn.  Send me a PM if you'd like to do this and we will setup a time. All planes have their strength's and weaknesses, you have to know yours and know theirs to be succesfull. 

 :salute
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Offline FLS

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Re: Maintaining a High Speed - High G Turn
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2010, 09:49:03 AM »
Noah you're putting the cart before the horse. You don't always want to maneuver at 400 MPH. Blowing all your E in a high speed spiral descent is often not your best option.You generally don't decide before the fight how to maneuver and hope your target follows your plan. There are exceptions like trying to rope somebody, setting them up for a wingman or picking somebody with BnZ but usually if you commit to a fight you can't follow a script past the initial merge. You need to see what your target is doing and adjust your maneuvers to your target based on your aircraft's abilities vs theirs.

The excerpt you quoted was explained in your previous post. At higher speeds the Zero doesn't maneuver as well. The lesson is: don't get slow near a Zero if you aren't in an aircraft that can turn with it at slow speeds.  A maneuver you read about that worked when the target flew a certain way will not work against an online pilot who has already learned from his fatal mistakes.



 

Offline pervert

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Re: Maintaining a High Speed - High G Turn
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2010, 10:04:20 AM »
Heres an example of using 'fast turns' 300-360 mph in combat against superior turning aircraft. If your looking for some sort of turning method that poses no risk to yourself, especially in a fantastic all round aircraft like an F4U well respectfully thats just being a bit timid.  :salute

http://www.4shared.com/file/dh3LFqWd/2v2spitsdisadvant.html

Offline BaldEagl

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Re: Maintaining a High Speed - High G Turn
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2010, 10:55:48 AM »
As others have already said, I don't think all that speed helps you out turn anyone.

The closest thing I can think of, and I use it a lot, is barrel rolling over the top of a slower AC to gain vertical seperation and stay behind his 3/9 line.  When you're at the top you have a lot of options relative to lift vector rotation and it's pretty easy to reaquire the six of pretty much anything but the speed isn't really allowing me to out turn him, I'm just trying to maintain it to allow for more options later.

If I'm serious about wanting to fight someone riding the edge of a blackout's the last place I want to be.
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.

Offline Noah17

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Re: Maintaining a High Speed - High G Turn
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2010, 11:54:59 AM »
This is not something I would do at a merge. Also, it's not me or the bad guy B-n-Z'ing. This is not something I'm planning before I get in to a fight because no fight is ever exactly the same. This is only something I would have tried if I had not noticed one of those planes had pulled in behind me while we're level at about the same speed. That situation can happen all the time (please don't say well......you shouldn't have lost your SA because that's not the issue or an answer to my question).

Basically I'm level and don't notice the bad guy until he's about 800yds behind me roughly co-E. If this is the case I may not be desperate but, I'm in a pretty bad spot. It's not timid or running if it's something I can do to use the strength of my plane vs. a weakness of my opponents plane and put myself in a position for a reversal. Pervert, thanks very much for the film. You did an excellent job fighting back but the film didn't fit the situation I had in mind of finding someone Co-E on my 6. I should have explained that better.

BigRat, your point about tracking is a good one. The blackout was not total I maintained enough vision to be able to see my speedometer and the nose of my plane. I now realize I didn't try looking behind me to see what my rearview would have been like and if I would have been able to track someone behind me. That's pretty damn important.

I realize that for every move there is a counter move. And sitting here it's easy to say "well if you did this then I would have done that." If that is your comment that's fine, I'm still learning something that I should be watching for. But, it's not always that easy because you don't always have the time to think that clearly in combat. Many people get greedy for a kill and follow maneuvers that they shouldn't. I've seen some very good sticks lose SA or get greedy and get killed as a result....I know, sometimes I'm the one that killed them...and I stink.

Thanks very much for the time you've taken to help, I've gained from it and I really appreciate it.
 :salute
« Last Edit: May 01, 2010, 12:09:24 PM by Noah17 »

Offline Big Rat

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Re: Maintaining a High Speed - High G Turn
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2010, 12:24:18 PM »
Noah17,

  "Basically I'm level and don't notice the bad guy until he's about 800yds behind me roughly co-E."  I have an App for that :lol .  Shoot me a PM and we'll work out a time to work on this situation.

 :salute
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Offline FLS

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Re: Maintaining a High Speed - High G Turn
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2010, 12:31:52 PM »
If you're level and Co-E with a better turning aircraft 800 off your six just unload and extend and reset the situation.

Offline jdbecks

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Re: Maintaining a High Speed - High G Turn
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2010, 12:32:25 PM »
I fly 109s alot, and I always try to take the fight uphill. when I fly the dora, I do some high speed turns but not for long as I find it more usefull banking E rather than a high speed turn fight. When someone is doing high speed turns depending on the situation and planes we are in, I do a lagg turn with the thinking I'm pulling less Gs and not burning as much E, hopefully thats the right thing Im doing  :angel:
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Offline Saxman

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Re: Maintaining a High Speed - High G Turn
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2010, 03:03:04 PM »
Also, there's no such thing as maintaining a high-speed, high-G turn. A high-speed, high-G turn inevitably turns into a low-speed, low-G turn. Unless you're going nose-low in a descending spiral you're just going to bleed off your speed if you try to make any sort of sustained maneuver at high speeds. And if I'm in my F4U and I encounter a Zero, I'm NEVER going to try to turn with him at any speed for that very reason. If I start to go nose low to maintain that high-speed fight, he can very easily just grab instead and get above me, where I DEFINITELY don't want him to be. The only time you'll see me do this is if I have no other options and I'm just trying to get out alive.

Don't try to flat-turn an opponent you know is going to be able to beat you in a sustained turning contest. It's a s simple as that. As has been said: Use the vertical. Every F4U but the -1 Birdcage should out-vertical the Zero. The A6M5 has a marginal advantage over the 1A/C/D in sustained climb, (less than 500fpm, and only up through 10,000ft) but it's close enough that the Corsair's power and E retention gives her an edge short-term if you have the speed to work with. And if you DO have that speed to work with, then USE it. Stay above him. Extend vertically and try to position yourself directly over him (the closer to vertical your attack is from, the more difficult it is for your target to defend because you can keep him in position just by rolling. Just remember you may have to break off sooner to be able to pull off without overshooting or scrubbing your E at the bottom). And if you're in a -4 he'll NEVER catch you going uphill unless you've screwed up and let him bleed your speed

Again, as someone else said, work to your plane's strengths. To put a finer point on it, work to your plane's strengths against the opponent you're facing. If you're faster than and out-vertical Plane B, and Plane B can out-turn you, then that tells you right away to keep the fight uphill and don't close into any sort of sustain turning fight. However if Plane C comes along that's faster but you can out-turn HIM, you want to drag him in close.

That's one of the beautiful things about the F4U, is that there's really not an opponent that she doesn't have SOME sort of advantage over. There's some that blur the line--F6Fs are very similar aircraft with most of the same strengths and weaknesses, although the F4U has a marginal edge in most categories; and I still maintain that a very well-flown Ki-84 is THE most dangerous opponent for the Corsair--but the F4U's flexibility and capability to switch between BnZ and TnB with ease is just one more tool in the box to take advantage of. However in the case of pure turn-fighters like the Zero, Spit I, Hurricanes, Brewster and F4Fs you DON'T want to try to enter any sort of sustained maneuvering engagement as once you wear out your E, they'll all out-turn you and you're in for a world of trouble. Against a P-51, P-47 or 190, if you can drag them into a close-range fight you'll chew them up (but keep in mind, they're going to treat you EXACTLY how you'd treat that Zeke).
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Noah17

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Re: Maintaining a High Speed - High G Turn
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2010, 08:31:24 PM »
Thanks Sax,

The scenario I was describing was pretty much a desperate (or close to it) one.
The nose slightly low turn at 400 plus MPH I thought could be a good maneuver if someone was on my six. If they are determined to get the kill and are going to chase me down a zeke or 109 or something like that will have a tougher time staying with me if I can maintain that speed while pulling close to 6g's. I have managed to maintain a close to 6g turn for a couple of continuous turns and maintain about 420+ offline. I haven't tried that online because I've just now considered it. Pulling that many g's a plane behind me trying to follow, shoot and, pull as much can't hit me unless they kill their speed. If they did I would think that still being at 400+ I would have the option to extend or go vertical. I've flown the Ki-84 and at high speed; If I remember it can't pull more then 5g's at that speed.

It definitely seems that I can't come all the way around to be at a low AOT but, if one of these planes were to follow me in to that and I reversed using the F4U's ability to get slow and either go up or roll over on top of them well..... I thought maybe that would work.

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Offline pervert

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Re: Maintaining a High Speed - High G Turn
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2010, 09:45:13 PM »
Thanks Sax,

The scenario I was describing was pretty much a desperate (or close to it) one.
The nose slightly low turn at 400 plus MPH I thought could be a good maneuver if someone was on my six. If they are determined to get the kill and are going to chase me down a zeke or 109 or something like that will have a tougher time staying with me if I can maintain that speed while pulling close to 6g's. I have managed to maintain a close to 6g turn for a couple of continuous turns and maintain about 420+ offline. I haven't tried that online because I've just now considered it. Pulling that many g's a plane behind me trying to follow, shoot and, pull as much can't hit me unless they kill their speed. If they did I would think that still being at 400+ I would have the option to extend or go vertical. I've flown the Ki-84 and at high speed; If I remember it can't pull more then 5g's at that speed.

It definitely seems that I can't come all the way around to be at a low AOT but, if one of these planes were to follow me in to that and I reversed using the F4U's ability to get slow and either go up or roll over on top of them well..... I thought maybe that would work.

 :salute

Ahh I get what your talking about now, you could do that but theres a good chance he'll still be somewhere on your tail at the end of it, and if they really want to pull more gs they could just use trim and you still won't have enough e to get out of guns range. Just seems a lot of hassle to blow all your alt to maybe get 1 guy off your tail.

Probably be better taking bigrat up on the training offer and spending the time there mate.  :salute

Offline Saxman

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Re: Maintaining a High Speed - High G Turn
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2010, 10:07:27 PM »
That diving spiral is more or less a move of last resort to keep them from drawing a bead in hopes you can gain enough separation to straighten out and motor away. Ideally you want get them out of phase and work it so that you extend in the OPPOSITE direction your opponent is facing. However this is a defensive move and you don't have many options to re-engage directly from it unless your opponent makes a really bad mistake such as an overshoot. Once you commit to this your best hope is to shake them off so you can withdraw and re-enter the fight from a better position. You can use a low-AoA high-speed climb once you have some room to straighten out (with gunnery in here, you want at LEAST 1000yds separation). You may not climb as high, but the F4U can hold on to airspeed for a LONG time like this, and really scoot away from slower opponents--even those who will out-climb you like the Spits. IF you have sufficient airspeed and separation.

Keep in mind that while this may work in a large fight where there are other targets your opponent needs to contend with (particularly those at co-alt or above) and can't devote himself to chasing you down, (granted if he DOES get fixated and you have a friendly nearby, you CAN use this to initiate a drag-and-bag....) in a 1v1 he can just pull out and pursue you from a perch which puts you in very little of a better position than when he was D800 on your Six and closing.

Another option is a situation I was in tonight:

The skies were completely clear in all directions, above and below, while I'm searching for a target near an enemy airfield. All the sudden I look back and have a 109G-14 about 800yds out and closing (no idea WHERE he came from, either. There wasn't so much as a dot in all directions for the time I was circling, with plenty of checks to the rear and rocking to clear my Low-6).

Priority 1: React to the immediate threat.

I snapped into a low-yo to the left, turning back into him to throw off his attack run. I was cruising level, so had a decent amount of speed (gotta love the 350mph cruise speed on the F4U) and couldn't get my flaps out. The G-14 attempted to turn with me. I was still in his front arc, but had prevented him from gaining a clear guns solution and spoiled the bounce.

Priority 2: Reverse the bastage.

The 109 was now within 400yds, but unable to pull lead. I continued through my low-yo (it ended up as almost an oblique Split-S) into a high one. The G-14 continued to follow, and we ended up in a looping fight. As we continued looping I continually made alterations to my bank angle. Sometimes I came more straight over the top, others I was in more of an oblique/high-yo. By now our airspeeds were dropping and as I was able to bring my flaps into play I started pulling around on him. The 109 did the smart thing: He broke off and grabbed out. Had he not, I was maybe a loop or two from being able to roll over into a guns solution and a victory. A G-14 WILL out-climb the 1-series Hogs (I was in my 1A) and I had no intention of trying to follow him up, so I unloaded my flaps and turned for home in a shallow climb, watching him all the way and waiting for him to try coming back in (he didn't and decided to pick on a friendly that arrived shortly after we separated instead).

Do NOT stay defensive. If you stay on the defensive, you're only delaying the inevitable. The only defensive maneuver you should make is that first one to avoid the initial attack. Once you clear his first pass the next thing on your mind should be, "How do I get on HIS Six from here?" It could be dragging him into a looping fight, or extending out in a shallow high-speed climb to neutralize his E and altitude advantage. Diving out with a spiral is purely defensive. That's not to say there's situations not to use it (I do myself if I'm in a really bad position and out of options) but it should definitely not be your first move as there's very few places you can go to reverse the situation.


...and I reversed using the F4U's ability to get slow...

Again, you do NOT want to use that capability against the Zeke. Stay. Fast.

Depending on the stick you MIGHT be able to pull it off against a Ki-84 as your flaps can come out well before his can and the Corsair has a very good instantaneous turn on that first notch, but you damn well better make that first shot count. Against 109s it really depends on the type. The E and F both turn too well so again, don't get slow if you can avoid it and stay fast. The G-series, especially the G-14, you can take a chance with. The K-4 is more often than not going to treat you like a Zero and use climb and speed to try to keep you away. Against most pilots if you drag him in close you can dice him up if he tries turning with you, but if you've got an Experten on your hands he's going to vertical you to death so be VERY careful trading off your airspeed against the K-4. Remember the 1-series Hogs don't recover E very easily if you give it up, so once you decide to get slow you're basically committed to it until the fight is over. This is why I prefer to keep her fast and high in large fights.
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Offline mtnman

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Re: Maintaining a High Speed - High G Turn
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2010, 10:18:10 PM »
I the desperate situation you describe, your best bet for getting out of trouble is to put your nose down and get your speed up.  

That said, I'd be putting my nose down the absolute minimum I had to.  I want the speed, and need the separation, but I sure don't want to blow whatever alt I have.  Diving out hard gives me the escape, but doesn't let me set up for the kill.

Coupled with putting my nose down a tad, I'm doing some slight, random, scissoring.  Just enough to dodge the shots, not enough to create an overshoot.  

In a "very" desperate situation, I might do a hard scissor or two, just to get him out of sync with me, before I drop my nose and go back to plan "A".  Every hard turn i make is detrimental to my survival in that situation, even if it's absolutely necessary initially.  If it takes two hard turns to survive, three will probably get me kilt...  Again, no attempt at an overshoot here...  I'm not trying to kill him, or keep the fight in close, or get behind him for a shot; I'm trying to mess up his shot so I can live long enough to get some speed.

If I can get into a subtle dive, with him following, all's going well.  Now, what I don't want him to do is break off and up.  I want him to tail-chase me, as I level out (out of guns-range) in front of him, and begin to build enough separation to go vertical.  That sets up a rope or slashing attack, depending on whether he follows me up.  Once we're in a level chase, I can raise my nose a bit, as long as I maintain 300mph.  This allows me to climb, at a speed that he can't maintain, even in level flight.  He'll slow down, fall behind (I like to see the icon read +1.5K before I go vertical) and be in trouble.  Following gets him killed, and turning away gets him killed.  This works on spits too, but I'd like 325mph for the Spit16.

This type of a fight is capitalizing on my speed advantage, and my ability to maneuver better than him at high speed.  It's taking advantage of his inability to maintain that speed, or to maneuver well at that speed.  Just because I'm doing that, though, doesn't mean I'm trying to out-turn him at that speed.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2010, 10:24:10 PM by mtnman »
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