Author Topic: More Camel torque please  (Read 5990 times)

Offline FLS

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2010, 01:52:42 PM »
Mano it's modeled. Just fly a loop.   :joystick:

I believe the article you quote refers to a larger engine than the one modeled in AH.

Offline hitech

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #46 on: May 11, 2010, 02:28:20 PM »
Good posts from all of you  <S>.........(Image removed from quote.)

I have left posts on this topic before in other flight sim forums and it is a tough subject to explain.
Take off the front wheel of bicycle.....spin it fast and observe what happens when you turn it to the right
......then observe what happens when you turn it to the left. Pull it upward, pull it downward, ect.
If the wheel is spinning clockwise from your p.o.v. it will be easier to turn to the right than to the left and it has a tendency to
move upward. Now, imagine if that bicycle wheel was turning at 1200 rpm's and weighed in at 300 lbs or more as the Clerget,  Le Rhone, or Oberursel engines did in WWI.
You would essentially be flying a giant gyroscope or flywheel with wings.

It may not be possible to model the rotary engine with the current flight sim engine because the
rotary engine was only used in WWI and was replaced by the more advanced radial engine after the war.  Rise of Flight does not have the rotary engine modeled either.
Probably the best we can hope for as flight sim enthusiasts is to see the rotary engine planes modeled with lots of torque and the inline engine planes modeled with less torque.
Any articles you might find on WWI A/C will mention the planes with rotary engines turned to the right faster to the right than the left.........and had to use strong rudder if
they turned left.



Wikipedia Link of the Rotary Engine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_engine
Wikipedia Link to Gyroscopic precession
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession

Here is a quote from Richard A. King


<S>
Mano

There is nothing in your post that shows why they would turn better one way then the other, again as SCTusk you are just stating the obvious. You can take a statement like better to also mean easier when reading papers about turning. I.E. I would absolutely say they turn better to the right, but that does not mean faster.

The problem you seam to be missing is that the force created is perpendicular to your turning circle,(as you have stated) so if you are in a level turn there is force (more precisely a torque) at the prop that is either straight up or straight down, except what I have describe (drag) there is nothing either slowing or speeding up the turn with a perpendicular force. So if a plane turns better WHY?

Also I am not sure what you mean by modeling rotary engines. We do model them completely.

HiTech

Offline Baumer

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2010, 02:58:34 PM »
As another clueless dolt I have a question, probably poorly phrased but here it goes.

Since the displacement torque is acting on the center of mass (in the example on wikipedia referenced above) isn't that analogous to the aircraft center of gravity not the prop disk?



I was thinking that there is a component of the torque vector that would change the wing loading (slightly negative to the right / and slightly positive to the left) for a given turn.

Or am I completely crazy? 
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Offline hitech

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2010, 03:36:59 PM »
As I said (more precisely a torque) . Torques are the same no mater where they are applied to a body.I.E. The roll torque of a 1 engine of a twin engine is the same as a single engine.  Torque definition is a force couple of = force and opposite directions.

It was just easier to visualize as a force, not a torque since the plane is at an angle in the circle, the torque is between a yaw and and pitch. Hence it was easier to describe and Up force at the prop disk.

HiTech

Offline bustr

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2010, 06:18:41 PM »
I just spent the afternoon offline with the Camel. I finally got it to be a smooth gun platform. But it took some experimentation. As for any bearing to the tehcnical complaint by the OP, this was only to try and use the tool HiTech has given us to get the most from it.

1. Fly with Combat Trim off.

2. Fly level until you reach max speed then manual trim everything. Place enough left rudder trim as needed to stop the significant right hand turn so you fly straight hands off. Once the left hand trim is in place the Camel becomes very controlable.

3. The seeming dead band area in front when trying to come to a guns solution is due to the engine torque. Cycle your throttle as you line up. I found a liberal application of throttle cycling countered the torque induced nose floating.

4. Left hand turns the nose has a tendency to rise up and slow you down. Use less throttle or cycle the throttle to help lessen this.
 
5. Right hand turns the nose snaps around and down. If you are fighting between 10k and 1k this is a fantastic maneuver because you can recover. Between 500ft and the grass, fast right hand turns will get you crashed. Though you can apply full left rudder while turning right to keep the nose up near the deck.

6. Do not begin a steep climb below max speed. You will stall and float tail down quicker than you can recover. I watch many Camels crash this way below 1k. Even with max speed do not climb for very long. Use the right rudder and engine torque to snap your nose down to the right. On the deck pulling up and snapping back down to the right works very well against the Dr1. They often collide with you trying to avoid your quick change of direction.

Seems you need to be willing to cycle the throttle to overcome the engine torque while maneuvering to the left or during the last moments of fine control while shooting. Otherwise when you apply left rudder your nose will track high across the target and when you correct back to the right your nose will track low under the target courtesy of Mr. torque.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline SCTusk

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2010, 04:23:29 AM »
Hello hitech and Salute. Mike Goulian good enough for you?

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=PEXGjHc4858C&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=gyroscopic+precession+aviation&source=bl&ots=cfC8pu0RSM&sig=gafnjxHY_Pmvi5YGCH1llijwIoQ&hl=en&ei=bGrqS7mmGs6TkAWIkdGACw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CDYQ6AEwCDge#v=onepage&q&f=false


Spinning prop mass probably isn't enough for these guys to detect a sustained assisting force in a right hand turn, but it should be clear that if the aircraft is moving in an arc there must be continuous precession; e.g. the right hand turn requires a continuous pitch up and yaw to the right. Since some of the right yaw is provided by gyroscopic effect (in the case of a Camel apparently all, right turns required left rudder) the pilot need only keep the stick back and the aircraft will fly more easily to the right than it will to the left. It follows that if he increases the rate of turn, the gyroscopic effect will increase the rate of turn even further. Thus a higher rate of turn is possible.

As for the supporting formula, there are plenty of sites with them on the net and elsewhere (pretty sure I already provided a link to one).

As I've already said I think AH is a great piece of work.


"If we were only able to encourage the enemy to get in a dogfight, things were easy, as a Camel could out maneuver anything."  Australian ace Edgar McCloughry
"We don't have a plan, so nothing can go wrong." (Spike Milligan)

Read my WW1 online novel 'Blood and Old Bones' at http://www.ww1sims.com/
A tribute to WW1 airmen and the squadron spirit, inspired by virtual air combat.

SCTusk    ++ SKELETON CREW ++  founde

Offline hitech

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #51 on: May 12, 2010, 09:13:13 AM »
SCTusk wrote:
Quote
It follows that if he increases the rate of turn, the gyroscopic effect will increase the rate of turn even further. Thus a higher rate of turn is possible.

Again you just state it with no diagram, proof or reference reference, basically you are talking BS, The gyro creates an UP (world relative torque) when left hand flat turn down (world realative) when turning right, no where is there any thing that increases the turn.

Now as I write this it suddenly hits me, it has become completely obvious that it can NOT help you turn . The reason is very very simple Gyros do not create a force they create a torque. Torque rotates the plane but does not move it's direction of travel, this requires a FORCE/not torque. Since there is not a force only a torque created, and the force that makes you turn is lift, it is hence impossible for the gyro to increase a turn.

Saying a gyro helps a turn is the same thought that the elevator makes you turn, not lift from the wings.

HiTech

Offline Baumer

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #52 on: May 12, 2010, 09:44:33 AM »
disregard

« Last Edit: May 12, 2010, 09:48:03 AM by Baumer »
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Offline Wmaker

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #53 on: May 12, 2010, 11:35:39 AM »
It follows that if he increases the rate of turn, the gyroscopic effect will increase the rate of turn even further. Thus a higher rate of turn is possible.

Once again, the wings provide the lift that aircraft needs to turn. Aircraft normally, like the Camel, have enough elevator authority to stall the airctaft in a sustained turn. If that can be done, there's not much that will make the aircraft turn faster/with a smaller radius unless the force in question somehow provides more lift or thrust. This torque caused by the gyroscopic precession does neither.


"If we were only able to encourage the enemy to get in a dogfight, things were easy, as a Camel could out maneuver anything."  Australian ace Edgar McCloughry

You can post these type of quotes by the hundreds and they won't change a thing. That's the perception of a single person. As I already mentioned when you posted a similar anecdote the first time; An anecdote like this does nothing to scientifically quantify things and ignores countless amount of variables.
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Offline SCTusk

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #54 on: May 12, 2010, 12:41:09 PM »
Quote
Again you just state it with no diagram, proof or reference reference, basically you are talking BS

So HiTech, all those satellites whizzing around over our heads being steered by gyros are actually not working at all? I'd better get straight onto NASA lol. Have a little think here; if you could get the rotary engine working in space, found some purchase and pushed the tail around, the gyro effect would work almost exactly as already explained. It does not require air, lift, wing coefficients or a khaki paint scheme. This is a fundamental force of physics, if you shove the thing one way it goes another. The energy for the motion comes from the spinning mass. Ask someone you do respect, that would know (e.g. a professor of physics... they love being asked stuff like this).

Not sure that I'm cool with paying someone to tell me I'm talking BS. But I'll let it pass, at the moment you're clearly under the impression that I'm some sort of idiot, so no foul. I know how it is when you're confronted by what looks like a fracture in your universe. When you finally figure out the general direction of reality you can apologise, publicly :)

(actually I'd settle for slightly more gyro effect on the Camel)

Quote
You can post these type of quotes by the hundreds and they won't change a thing. That's the perception of a single person. As I already mentioned when you posted a similar anecdote the first time; An anecdote like this does nothing to scientifically quantify things and ignores countless amount of variables.

Wmaker, hundreds of quotes wouldn't be the perception of a single person, that would be the perception of hundreds... and quite frankly, I'm damned if I'll post any more here just to have you dismiss the words of heroes as so much toss. Starting to wonder why you're even involved in this if you have such little respect for those who served.
"We don't have a plan, so nothing can go wrong." (Spike Milligan)

Read my WW1 online novel 'Blood and Old Bones' at http://www.ww1sims.com/
A tribute to WW1 airmen and the squadron spirit, inspired by virtual air combat.

SCTusk    ++ SKELETON CREW ++  founde

Offline hitech

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #55 on: May 12, 2010, 12:51:51 PM »
SCTusk, to some searching , show me anywhere how a gyro creates a force not a torque.

Well golly g SCTusk, I think you just found the new engine, we can go to mars with just electricity and a gyro, quick you should call NASA.

HiTech

Offline hitech

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #56 on: May 12, 2010, 01:19:11 PM »


So HiTech, all those satellites whizzing around over our heads being steered by gyros are actually not working at all? I'd better get straight onto NASA lol. Have a little think here; if you could get the rotary engine working in space, found some purchase and pushed the tail around, the gyro effect would work almost exactly as already explained. It does not require air, lift, wing coefficients or a khaki paint scheme. This is a fundamental force of physics, if you shove the thing one way it goes another. The energy for the motion comes from the spinning mass. Ask someone you do respect, that would know (e.g. a professor of physics... they love being asked stuff like this).


Controlled momentum gyros are rotated to change the attitude of a satellite as rapidly as possible by rotating them along a great circle path on an imaginary spherical surface around the satellite. Adjustments the gyro rotations are made in two directions, along the spherical surface, as the satellite rotates. All the stored angular momentum in the gyros is used to rotate the satellite, rather than limiting the rotation of the gyros to avoid instabilities from singularities in traditional control laws.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6154691.html

SCTusk again you are talking pure BS with out any research or knowledge.

Notice key words (change the attitude ) I.E. rotate the object not move it or a better word translate it.

It requires a translational force not a torque to turn an airplane.

HiTech

Offline SCTusk

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"We don't have a plan, so nothing can go wrong." (Spike Milligan)

Read my WW1 online novel 'Blood and Old Bones' at http://www.ww1sims.com/
A tribute to WW1 airmen and the squadron spirit, inspired by virtual air combat.

SCTusk    ++ SKELETON CREW ++  founde

Offline SCTusk

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #58 on: May 12, 2010, 01:37:57 PM »
"A control moment gyroscope (CMG) is an example of a fixed-output-gimbal device that is used on spacecraft to hold or maintain a desired attitude angle or pointing direction using the gyroscopic resistance force." <----- Force

ref http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyroscope

And that's twice now with the BS thing, but s'ok I'm still smiling  :cool:
"We don't have a plan, so nothing can go wrong." (Spike Milligan)

Read my WW1 online novel 'Blood and Old Bones' at http://www.ww1sims.com/
A tribute to WW1 airmen and the squadron spirit, inspired by virtual air combat.

SCTusk    ++ SKELETON CREW ++  founde

Offline FLS

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Re: More Camel torque please
« Reply #59 on: May 12, 2010, 01:38:22 PM »
SCTusk somehow you've missed the fact that gyroscopic precession is modeled on all
AH aircraft. You seem to think that Hitech explaining exactly how gyroscopic precession works is instead a denial of it's effects.  Perhaps if you reread this thread you'll see my point.

Edit: If you aren't seeing any gyroscopic effects flying the Camel I may be able to help you with that in the training arena.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2010, 03:47:19 PM by FLS »