Author Topic: Tail Damage - Opening can of worms...  (Read 5349 times)

Offline WMLute

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Re: Tail Damage - Opening can of worms...
« Reply #60 on: May 30, 2010, 01:54:40 PM »
The ONLY thing that confuses me is if I loose an elevator it is very noticeable.  The plane flies drastically different and is greatly impaired in its maneuverability.

But if I loose and elevator AND a v-stab it is only slightly impaired in it's maneuverability.

Someone please explain that to me.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Tail Damage - Opening can of worms...
« Reply #61 on: May 30, 2010, 04:22:51 PM »
A whole stab means there is a whole stability and with only half the elevator area it only has half the influence. With only half the stab and half of the elevator the stabilizing effect is decreased but the elevator can still influence the same change to that half.
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Offline WMLute

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Re: Tail Damage - Opening can of worms...
« Reply #62 on: May 30, 2010, 05:58:26 PM »
Lets see if I understand what you are saying.

With only 1/2 the surfaces I can get close to normal performance.

With only 1/2 and Elev. but a FULL V-Stab those two forces are fighting one another and the plane performance suffers.

So with this logic if I lost 1/2 a V-Stab and still had a full Elev. I would also suffer greatly in performance.

Just seems odd to me that more damage = better performance.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Tail Damage - Opening can of worms...
« Reply #63 on: May 30, 2010, 06:27:04 PM »
Even if you had a full elevator and half the stab area (meaning the left or right is missing) only the half elevator that has a stab is actually producing beneficial lift (positive or negative). The half without the stab portion would primarily be producing drag but more likely it would be adding a non-beneficial load on the other elevator.
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Offline Krusty

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Re: Tail Damage - Opening can of worms...
« Reply #64 on: May 31, 2010, 01:12:12 AM »
I don't think it works that way. You still have only half as much surface deflected into the wind to pitch the tail up or down. Also the CoG would be altered, the plane would fly all squirrelly, and any use of the remaining stab+elevator would include a rolling motion (just like a rudder).

Offline WMLute

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Re: Tail Damage - Opening can of worms...
« Reply #65 on: May 31, 2010, 01:33:57 AM »
I don't think it works that way. You still have only half as much surface deflected into the wind to pitch the tail up or down. Also the CoG would be altered, the plane would fly all squirrelly, and any use of the remaining stab+elevator would include a rolling motion (just like a rudder).

Which is what I kinda figured would happen.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Tail Damage - Opening can of worms...
« Reply #66 on: May 31, 2010, 05:33:09 AM »
Then what are we in disagreement about?  :)
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Offline Stoney

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Re: Tail Damage - Opening can of worms...
« Reply #67 on: May 31, 2010, 08:03:41 AM »
I don't think it works that way. You still have only half as much surface deflected into the wind to pitch the tail up or down. Also the CoG would be altered, the plane would fly all squirrelly, and any use of the remaining stab+elevator would include a rolling motion (just like a rudder).

The CG wouldn't change that much.  Elevators don't weigh much at all, relative to the other parts of the aircraft.  Exactly how much "rolling motion" would be created?  You say that like you've done the math, but really you're just stating something you think will happen.

What would change is the ability of the elevator/horizontal stab to create the required trim moment about the pitch axis because with half of the horizontal stab and elevator missing, the tail would only be able to generate 1/2 the lift as it would in its original state.
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Offline mtnman

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Re: Tail Damage - Opening can of worms...
« Reply #68 on: May 31, 2010, 08:42:59 AM »
Also the CoG would be altered, the plane would fly all squirrelly, and any use of the remaining stab+elevator would include a rolling motion (just like a rudder).

The CG would shift slightly forward, though, not back.  Planes that are designed to be more maneuverable/less stable generally have their CG further back than planes that are designed to be more stable/less maneuverable.  There's a trade-off involved; less stable is more maneuverable. More stable is less maneuverable.  So, a slight shift forward could actually make the plane less "squirley".

The required CoG of a plane isn't a precise point, it's more of a "range".  Flight testing will reveal the "best" point within that range, but there's some allowable shift forward and backward from that point.  Things like cargo, fuel, or passengers, will shift the actual CoG forward or backwards.  If the fuel or cargo (ordinance) are moved, or burned, or "dropped", the CoG will change (along with the current wing-loading), if that weight was initially placed anywhere forward or rearward of the CoG.  Shifting it forward (as long as the forward limit isn't surpassed) will make the plane more difficult/slower to re-direct (which is also what we generally consider to be more "stable"), shifting the CoG rearward makes the plane easier/quicker to re-direct, until it reaches a point where it's too "squirly" to control (less stable).

That rolling movement you mention is present in AH from what I've seen.

I'm not arguing that a damaged plane should be more stable, just that a slight forward shift of the CoG shouldn't be a deal-breaker.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2010, 08:54:03 AM by mtnman »
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Offline Stoney

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Re: Tail Damage - Opening can of worms...
« Reply #69 on: May 31, 2010, 11:26:14 AM »
The CG would shift slightly forward, though, not back.  Planes that are designed to be more maneuverable/less stable generally have their CG further back than planes that are designed to be more stable/less maneuverable.  There's a trade-off involved; less stable is more maneuverable. More stable is less maneuverable.  So, a slight shift forward could actually make the plane less "squirley".

The required CoG of a plane isn't a precise point, it's more of a "range".  Flight testing will reveal the "best" point within that range, but there's some allowable shift forward and backward from that point.  Things like cargo, fuel, or passengers, will shift the actual CoG forward or backwards.  If the fuel or cargo (ordinance) are moved, or burned, or "dropped", the CoG will change (along with the current wing-loading), if that weight was initially placed anywhere forward or rearward of the CoG.  Shifting it forward (as long as the forward limit isn't surpassed) will make the plane more difficult/slower to re-direct (which is also what we generally consider to be more "stable"), shifting the CoG rearward makes the plane easier/quicker to re-direct, until it reaches a point where it's too "squirly" to control (less stable).

That rolling movement you mention is present in AH from what I've seen.

I'm not arguing that a damaged plane should be more stable, just that a slight forward shift of the CoG shouldn't be a deal-breaker.

Just remember that fore and aft CG changes affect pitch stability only.  There are two other axes involved.  Given that the CG movement forward would be very small (again because empenage control surfaces are typically very light), I'd say it would be difficult to argue that the CG shift would be a stabilizing influence on the plane.  The loss of half of the pitch dampening force of the aircraft would decrease stability more.
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Offline mtnman

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Re: Tail Damage - Opening can of worms...
« Reply #70 on: May 31, 2010, 11:52:44 AM »
Just remember that fore and aft CG changes affect pitch stability only.  There are two other axes involved.  Given that the CG movement forward would be very small (again because empenage control surfaces are typically very light), I'd say it would be difficult to argue that the CG shift would be a stabilizing influence on the plane.  The loss of half of the pitch dampening force of the aircraft would decrease stability more.

Agreed.  That's the reason for my last sentence.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Tail Damage - Opening can of worms...
« Reply #71 on: May 31, 2010, 12:38:15 PM »
I would like to see film of the rolling motion when a half-stab is missing. I dont like to get shot so it may be a while I get to experience it.  :D
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Offline Spikes

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Re: Tail Damage - Opening can of worms...
« Reply #72 on: May 31, 2010, 02:11:17 PM »
I would like to see film of the rolling motion when a half-stab is missing. I dont like to get shot so it may be a while I get to experience it.  :D
Mtnman will have it up soon. :P
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Offline mtnman

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Re: Tail Damage - Opening can of worms...
« Reply #73 on: May 31, 2010, 02:41:08 PM »
I would like to see film of the rolling motion when a half-stab is missing. I dont like to get shot so it may be a while I get to experience it.  :D

LOL, Thanks Spikes!  Spikes was nice to enough to head into the DA with me and shoot parts off for me.  Nice shootin' too.  Popped the elevator off first try, and let me film a bit, and then popped the stab off, and let me film again...

With just the elevator gone (left) the roll tendency is pretty obvious.  What I did was level out, and manually trim for level flight, and then use a finger to apply elevator doing my best to avoid any input of aileron.  My feet were off of the pedals as well, to eliminate rudder input.  This is the effect I'd expect, and have seen several times...

http://www.4shared.com/file/jJD0iSR9/Test_film-_left_elev_shot_off.html

Then, with the left stabilizer removed, things weren't as I expected.  First, using only up/down elevator trim, the roll effect wasn't present.  Then, using the elevator "normally", there was no rolling effect either.  The only big difference was that in my initial application of up elevaotr, i snapped into a spin very quickly/easily.  I didn't pull back hard at all, and was surprised to get that result.  When I tried again, with a smoother, more subtle application, there were no nasty results, and also no rolling effect.  I'm not sure which order these next three films are in, I named them too similarly...

http://www.4shared.com/file/ztu509Sy/Test_film-_L_stab_and_elevator.html

http://www.4shared.com/file/RfgDr61F/Test_film_L_stab_and_elev_shot.html

http://www.4shared.com/file/NMxRPE5L/Test_film-_L_stab_and_elevator.html

Thanks again Spikes!
MtnMan

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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Tail Damage - Opening can of worms...
« Reply #74 on: May 31, 2010, 03:39:42 PM »
Not what I would expect either.
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