A6M5 climb rate

[SgtPappy]

Upon reading an article by Robert Mikesh published in 'The Great Book of WWII Airplanes', I came across what the author states was a comparison test done with the Model 52-? Zero (A6M5-?) versus the F6F-5 and the F4U-1D. The Americans had captured, rebuilt and flown several of these claimed 'Model 52 Zeros' during the battle of Saipan, June 1944.

"F4U-1D vs Zero 52:

Both aircraft were flown side by side, making all things equal at the beginning of this flight comparison test. In a race for altitude, the best climb of the F4U-1D was equal to the Zero up to 10,000 feet, above 750 ft/min better at 18,000 feet and above 500 ft/min better at 22,000 feet and above. Best climb speeds of the F4U and Zero were 156 mph (135 kts) and 122 mph (105 kts) indicated airspeed respectively"

Now you may think... 'What? The A6M5b in our game destroys any F4U-1A that's using WEP in the climb rate. Perhaps the Zero in the test was flown incorrectly' But listen to this; the F6F-5 vs. the A6M5:

"F6F-5 vs Zero 52:

The Zero climbed about 600 ft/min better than the F6F up to 9,000 ft, after which the advantage fell off gradually until the two aircraft were about equal at 14,000 feet. Above this altitude, the Hellcat had the advantage, varying from 500 ft/min better at 22,000 feet, to about 250 ft/min better at 30,000 feet. Best climb speeds for the F6F-5 and Zero 52 were 150 mph (130 kts) and 122 mph (105 kts) indicated, respectively."

This is very strange... either the Americans didn't fly their F6F-5 at maximum capability and the Zero was not performing properly or there is something amiss in the climb rates of these aircraft in the game.

Essentially, the F6F-5 vs the A6M5b in our game is completely opposite to the test. Our F6F-5 can only outclimb the A6M5 using WEP, and only from 0-4000' and from 12000-~15500'. Above that, the Zero is better in climb all the way up.

An F4U-1D, even with WEP, cannot hope to come close to either the Hellcat or A6M5 climb rate in AHII. In-game now, the F4U-1D only out climbs the A6M5b during a tiny interval of altitude from 12000-14000 feet.

Can anyone explain the strange findings?

I wish I had the data as to the engine settings each plane was using at the time but I cannot find them.

[Krusty]

well, 2 replies:

First, there is no WEP in the zero in this game.

Second, that zero was heavily damaged and repaired, and at the time the US really had no idea how to operate it properly. It wasn't performing like Japanese versions would have. It was broken goods.

[vafiii]

Jap pilots were smaller and weighed less than American pilots resulting in an overall lighter, faster and more maneuverable aircraft. Jap's dined on vegetables, tofu and brown rice while Yanks gorged themselves on burgers, dogs, fries and milk shakes. Also, sake has half the calories of American beer.

[Ack-Ack]

Jap pilots were smaller and weighed less than American pilots resulting in an overall lighter, faster and more maneuverable aircraft. Jap's dined on vegetables, tofu and brown rice while Yanks gorged themselves on burgers, dogs, fries and milk shakes. Also, sake has half the calories of American beer.

...


ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

The A6M5 Type 0 Model 52 could climb to 26,250ft in 10 minutes.


ack-ack

[whipster22]

 

The A6M5 Type 0 Model 52 could climb to 26,250ft in 10 minutes.


ack-ack

[gyrene81]

Jap pilots were smaller and weighed less than American pilots resulting in an overall lighter, faster and more maneuverable aircraft. Jap's dined on vegetables, tofu and brown rice while Yanks gorged themselves on burgers, dogs, fries and milk shakes. Also, sake has half the calories of American beer.

*EDIT* Not even close vafii...

[Wayout]

 Could the fuel that was used have made the difference?  Wasn't U.S. fuel of a higher quality than what the Japanese used and if that was true then a Zero with U.S. fuel would outperform a Zero with Japanese fuel.

[Karnak]

Could the fuel that was used have made the difference?  Wasn't U.S. fuel of a higher quality than what the Japanese used and if that was true then a Zero with U.S. fuel would outperform a Zero with Japanese fuel.

Only if the engine was designed for the high grade fuel.  The Ki-84's engine was actually designed for fuel the Japanese didn't have access to, I am not sure that is the case with the older A6M5's engine.

[AirFlyer]

Jap pilots were smaller and weighed less than American pilots resulting in an overall lighter, faster and more maneuverable aircraft. Jap's dined on vegetables, tofu and brown rice while Yanks gorged themselves on burgers, dogs, fries and milk shakes. Also, sake has half the calories of American beer.

Although your right that the average Japanese pilot was usually smaller then his American counter-part, and US testings of the Zero usually note this with complaints of the size of the cockpit(which would be sufficient for a Japanese Pilot). I really doubt a gross difference of 20 - 40lbs at best made any noticeable difference.

[SgtPappy]

Regardless of the Zero's performance in these tests, we can see that the Hellcat cannot outlimb the F4U-1D in these tests. This is indeed strange, since AHII says the opposite.

The bigger picture here is that these two American Muscle planes seem very different in-game than in real life, unless someone can prove as to how these aircraft were tested.

EDIT: Also Krusty, I don't think I stated or the test stated that the Zero was on WEP. Then again, unfortunately, the test states nothing of the engine settings on any plane. But let me reiterate that whether the Zero was up to snuff or not, it was tested the same method against both USN birds (as far as the test shows us) and the F4U-1D outclimbs the A6M5 while the Hellcat only does so at high altitudes. So perhaps there is a problem with the F6F-5 testing method, or something is modeled strangely in the game.

I honestly doubt it's the latter, but this test deserves much speculation, and I don't think it should be ignored.

[Noah17]

These are good questions ( I would also like to know why) but if you try to use the set auto-climb to outclimb almost anyone in an F4U you're probably going to get killed. Get it to it's top speed and it climbs almost as fast as in autoclimb and it will pull away from most other planes.

[vafiii]

The average weight of Japanese pilot was 120lbs vs 180 for American pilots. Jap aces Saburo Sakai and Hroyoshi Nishizawa weighed a mere 122 lbs each. That's a 60lb difference right off the bat! Now add in gear, flight suits, parachutes, etc. and the weight differential is even more dramatic as Japanese pilots chose not to wear parachutes (even when ordered to do so). The Zero, like most Japanese planes, was extremely fuel efficient as opposed to the American gas guzzlers, allowing Japanese planes to carry a lighter fuel load. Not to mention the Zero weighed a mere 5,000lbs, half the weight of American planes. All this resulted in better performance, better climb rate, etc..

[AirFlyer]

A6M5b weighs more then 5,000lbs at combat weight. Also, you seem to be forgetting why it weighed so little in the first place, it had to do with that 1,100HP engine is was forced to use. Comparatively to American planes it fought against like the F6F: 2000HP, F4U: 2,400HP, P51D: 1,700HP(I think), etc, etc.

[SgtPappy]

The average weight of Japanese pilot was 120lbs vs 180 for American pilots. Jap aces Saburo Sakai and Hroyoshi Nishizawa weighed a mere 122 lbs each. That's a 60lb difference right off the bat! Now add in gear, flight suits, parachutes, etc. and the weight differential is even more dramatic as Japanese pilots chose not to wear parachutes (even when ordered to do so). The Zero, like most Japanese planes, was extremely fuel efficient as opposed to the American gas guzzlers, allowing Japanese planes to carry a lighter fuel load. Not to mention the Zero weighed a mere 5,000lbs, half the weight of American planes. All this resulted in better performance, better climb rate, etc..

Still missing the big picture here though. Of course the Zero's climb rate is strange and can be explained due to a number of things, but really, the thread was meant to show what the A6M5's climb rate revealed versus the Hellcat and Corsair.

IF the Zero was flown exactly the same against both planes (which is likely a safe assumption), then clearly, the F4U-1D is supposed to out climb the F6F-5. Which it doesn't in-game. Has anyone used the suggested climb speeds of 156 mph for the F4U-1D and 150 mph for the F6F-5? If there's a difference in climb rates there, perhaps it will match the test results.

I also found the original test I first posted here: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f4u/p-51b-f4u-1-navycomp.pdf